He is listed as 5 ft. 11 inches, so is bengie molina, but when they are
standing next to each other Sandoval looks a good 2 or 3 inches taller than
Bengie.

Also Sandoval's total numbers this year minors plus majors are quite
impressive.

Games 153, AB 593, R 114,

Hits 207, doubles 48, Triples 3

Homers 23, RBI 120

Total bases 330, BB 35 K's 73

SB 2, CS 2, AVG 349

Slugging 556.

If this guy could learn to be a little selective his upside would be unreal.

On Oct 1, 10:25 pm, "Dr. Wayne Simon" <wayne.si...@comcast.net> wrote:
> He is listed as  5 ft. 11 inches,  so is bengie molina, but when theyare
> standing next to each other Sandoval looks a good 2 or 3 inches taller than
> Bengie.

Well, he could be wearing heels . .. didn't you see him on the
Humiliate the Rookie Day, when he had to go to the airport dressed as
a Naughty French Maid? He was working it!

In article <78idnYFzKofBxnnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com>, Dr. Wayne Simon
says...
>If this guy could learn to be a little selective his upside would be unreal.
>
It takes about 1500 ABs at the Major League level to see if a guy has it or he
doesn't. Matt Williams couldn't lay off the outside breaking pitch with 2
strikes on him the first 3+ years in MLB. Once he got selective, he became a
feared hitter.

Pedro Feliz has NEVER learned to lay off that pitch--so he will be forever mired
in mediocrity.

We'll have to wait and see whether Sandoval evolves into a Matt Williams type of
hitter or a Pedro Feliz type.

Mark

"Mark Filice" <m_filice@hotnotcoldmail.com> wrote in message
news:gc385n016bm@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <78idnYFzKofBxnnVnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com>, Dr. Wayne Simon
> says...
>>If this guy could learn to be a little selective his upside would be
>>unreal.
>>
> It takes about 1500 ABs at the Major League level to see if a guy has it
> or he
> doesn't. Matt Williams couldn't lay off the outside breaking pitch with 2
> strikes on him the first 3+ years in MLB. Once he got selective, he became
> a
> feared hitter.
>
> Pedro Feliz has NEVER learned to lay off that pitch--so he will be forever
> mired
> in mediocrity.
>
> We'll have to wait and see whether Sandoval evolves into a Matt Williams
> type of
> hitter or a Pedro Feliz type.
>
> Mark
>

The difference here is that Sandoval can hit those pitches. However, with
that said, if you divide the strike zone, and some parts just off the strike
zone into separate Zones, you can see what a players batting average is when
he hits a ball within that particular zone. If he hits the low outside
pitch, and yet it is a zone where he could hit 300 then it perhaps is not
that bad a deal, but if he only hits 190 in that zone and continues to swing
at those pitches, he needs to lay off. No one seems to be able to convince
guys like Feliz, or Rowand to lay off certain pitches. As Dale Murphy's
career progressed he became worse and worse at hitting that low outside
pitch, and pitchers started pounding that area and Murphy never recovered,
but still kept swinging at those pitches. It was his downfall. If a guy
like Sandoval can learn to hit the ball when thrown in key zones with zero
or one strike, then he can raise his average. If not, pitchers will learn
to throw the ball where his results are poorer.

An example: early in the year I was at the Marlin's giants series, the fish
pitchers were actually throwing strikes to Molina, he murdered those
pitches. In our division most pitchers know Molina will swing at anything
and he gets a lot less pitches over the plate. He swings at crap and thus
is a high 200 hitter, one with the skill to hit over 300 easily with some
plate discipline.

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:25:20 -0400, "Dr. Wayne Simon"
<wayne.simon@comcast.net> wrote:

>He is listed as 5 ft. 11 inches, so is bengie molina, but when they are
>standing next to each other Sandoval looks a good 2 or 3 inches taller than
>Bengie.
>
>Also Sandoval's total numbers this year minors plus majors are quite
>impressive.
>
>Games 153, AB 593, R 114,
>
>Hits 207, doubles 48, Triples 3
>
>Homers 23, RBI 120
>
>Total bases 330, BB 35 K's 73
>
>SB 2, CS 2, AVG 349
>
>Slugging 556.
>
>If this guy could learn to be a little selective his upside would be unreal.
>

He doesn't have to be selective, he just has to hit and he's done that
with more gusto than any other Giants batter, even the so-called vets.
If the man can hit the damn pitch no matter where the pitcher tries to
put it, bravo!

At least he can hit them and I don't anticipate him ever doing his
best imitation of Pedro trying to dig a tunnel under home plate.

"JW" <JohnW@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:8tsae4l570pvuoj36nd83i60mfhc5hgt10@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:25:20 -0400, "Dr. Wayne Simon"
> <wayne.simon@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>He is listed as 5 ft. 11 inches, so is bengie molina, but when they are
>>standing next to each other Sandoval looks a good 2 or 3 inches taller
>>than
>>Bengie.
>>
>>Also Sandoval's total numbers this year minors plus majors are quite
>>impressive.
>>
>>Games 153, AB 593, R 114,
>>
>>Hits 207, doubles 48, Triples 3
>>
>>Homers 23, RBI 120
>>
>>Total bases 330, BB 35 K's 73
>>
>>SB 2, CS 2, AVG 349
>>
>>Slugging 556.
>>
>>If this guy could learn to be a little selective his upside would be
>>unreal.
>>
>
> He doesn't have to be selective, he just has to hit and he's done that
> with more gusto than any other Giants batter, even the so-called vets.
> If the man can hit the damn pitch no matter where the pitcher tries to
> put it, bravo!
>
> At least he can hit them and I don't anticipate him ever doing his
> best imitation of Pedro trying to dig a tunnel under home plate.

Now I am the manager of an opposing team. I start to collect the stats on
Sandoval. I zone the K zone into 9 mini zones and I also zone just outside
the K zone 12 separate zones. I start to compile how he hits in each zone.
Until Sandoval adjusts I start having my pitchers throw to his poorer
hitting zones. Teams did that to Molina and it works until he adjusts, but
he also gets frustrated. Right now with only limited AB's the league still
has not gathered a large enough sample to determine how to pitch to this
kid. But they will. The question is, will Pablo adjust, or will they turn
a 300 plus hitter into a high two hundreds hitter? The sophomore year will
be a year of adjustment. If you don't have to throw a strike to get him
to swing, watch out.

I do believe that if Bengie were to become a selective hitter he could
easily hit over 300. He has tremendous hitting ability but he is no
selective. When Bonds became even more selective than what he was
previously he started hitting off the charts both with power and with
average.

In article <QJKdnYbQ79D2HHjVnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@comcast.com>, Dr. Wayne Simon
says...
>
>Now I am the manager of an opposing team. I start to collect the stats on
>Sandoval. I zone the K zone into 9 mini zones and I also zone just outside
>the K zone 12 separate zones. I start to compile how he hits in each zone.
>Until Sandoval adjusts I start having my pitchers throw to his poorer
>hitting zones. Teams did that to Molina and it works until he adjusts, but
>he also gets frustrated. Right now with only limited AB's the league still

You are giving pitchers WAY too much credit for their control. 12 zones?
Consistently?

HOF pitchers probably have 9 zones, max. Good pitchers might have 4 zones.
Average pitchers maybe have 2 zones (in/out or up/down).

HOF Bob Gibson had 3 zones for the 17" width of home plate. The inside 2" were
his, and the outside 2" were his. If he put it in the hitters 13" area, he made
a mistake.

Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting that timing. It really is that simple.

Mark
"Baseball is a funny game. You have a round bat and a round ball and you are
supposed to hit it square."

Mark Filice wrote:

>> Now I am the manager of an opposing team. I start to collect the stats on
>> Sandoval. I zone the K zone into 9 mini zones and I also zone just outside
>> the K zone 12 separate zones. I start to compile how he hits in each zone.
>> Until Sandoval adjusts I start having my pitchers throw to his poorer
>> hitting zones. Teams did that to Molina and it works until he adjusts, but
>> he also gets frustrated. Right now with only limited AB's the league still
>
> You are giving pitchers WAY too much credit for their control. 12 zones?
> Consistently?

Just because many pitchers can't hit those zones consistently doesn't mean it's
not worth collecting that information about hitters. Knowing which zones a
particular hitter handles well (aside from the obvious "right down the middle"
zone) and which ones he handles poorly (aside from the obvious "on the black at
the knees" zone) certainly gives the pitcher an advantage.

> Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting that timing. It really is that simple.

Yes, but certain hitters have an easier time adjusting their timing to certain
zones.

"Jamal Bernhard" <noone@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:hwxFk.2149$x%.169@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Mark Filice wrote:
>
>>> Now I am the manager of an opposing team. I start to collect the stats
>>> on Sandoval. I zone the K zone into 9 mini zones and I also zone just
>>> outside the K zone 12 separate zones. I start to compile how he hits in
>>> each zone. Until Sandoval adjusts I start having my pitchers throw to
>>> his poorer hitting zones. Teams did that to Molina and it works until
>>> he adjusts, but he also gets frustrated. Right now with only limited
>>> AB's the league still
>>
>> You are giving pitchers WAY too much credit for their control. 12 zones?
>> Consistently?
>
> Just because many pitchers can't hit those zones consistently doesn't mean
> it's not worth collecting that information about hitters. Knowing which
> zones a particular hitter handles well (aside from the obvious "right down
> the middle" zone) and which ones he handles poorly (aside from the obvious
> "on the black at the knees" zone) certainly gives the pitcher an
> advantage.
>
>> Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting that timing. It really is that
>> simple.
>
> Yes, but certain hitters have an easier time adjusting their timing to
> certain zones.

I think the simple thing of upsetting the timing, and 2 or 3 zones is a
thing of the past, although some players may only have the ability to do
that, todays data both on screen and on video is way more sophisticated than
that , and the players who can take advaantage are all the better.

In article <dL2dnWNKRO5ZpnfVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@comcast.com>, Dr. Wayne Simon
says...
>
>I think the simple thing of upsetting the timing, and 2 or 3 zones is a
>thing of the past, although some players may only have the ability to do
>that, todays data both on screen and on video is way more sophisticated than
>that, and the players who can take advaantage are all the better.
>
I don't think that timing (or upsetting it) is a thing of the past. Most
pitchers have at least 3 pitches they can throw: fastball, breaking ball, and a
change up. The problem is, there are some nights where they might have only one
or two pitches that are working for them.

There are pitchers that can get outs consistently by having just 2 pitches. Like
a good fastball and a change up to complement it. If watching a hitter look
foolish swinging way before a change up gets to the plate doesn't convince
you--nothing will.

Pitchers prey on the hitter's weaknesses. If a hitter can't lay off an outside
breaking pitch with 2 strikes on him, any good pitcher will throw that pitch
every single time until the hitter can learn to lay off of it.

Willie Mays used to swing at pitches early in a game and intentionally miss. He
wanted to give the pitcher the false confidence to throw that pitch again with
the game on the line. Of course, I'm writing about a HOF player who is
considered to one of the best of all time.

If pitching was not upsetting timing, pitchers like Jamie Moyer and Greg Maddux
would have retired a long time ago.

Mark

Mark Filice wrote:

> I don't think that timing (or upsetting it) is a thing of the past. Most
> pitchers have at least 3 pitches they can throw: fastball, breaking ball, and a
> change up. The problem is, there are some nights where they might have only one
> or two pitches that are working for them.
>
> There are pitchers that can get outs consistently by having just 2 pitches. Like
> a good fastball and a change up to complement it. If watching a hitter look
> foolish swinging way before a change up gets to the plate doesn't convince
> you--nothing will.

Yep, upsetting timing is still the name of the game, along with deception. The
two go hand-in-hand. For pitchers that are successful with only two pitches, it
is usually either because one pitch is so dominant that hitters have to
anticipate (Randy Johnson), or because the pitches look so similar that they are
hard to pick up (Trevor Hoffman). In general, the more dominant a pitcher's
primary pitch is, the less he has to rely on deception to disrupt timing.

> Pitchers prey on the hitter's weaknesses. If a hitter can't lay off an outside
> breaking pitch with 2 strikes on him, any good pitcher will throw that pitch
> every single time until the hitter can learn to lay off of it.

I think that's all Wayne initially meant about analyzing a hitter's "zones".

> Willie Mays used to swing at pitches early in a game and intentionally miss. He
> wanted to give the pitcher the false confidence to throw that pitch again with
> the game on the line. Of course, I'm writing about a HOF player who is
> considered to one of the best of all time.

He also used to slow up while rounding third to make the outfielder think he had
a play at the plate, in order to allow the trailing runners to move up on the
throw. Or so he says. He was unreal.

On 6 Oct 2008 11:54:51 -0700, Mark Filice
<m_filice@hotnotcoldmail.com> wrote:

>In article <dL2dnWNKRO5ZpnfVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@comcast.com>, Dr. Wayne Simon
>says...
>>
>>I think the simple thing of upsetting the timing, and 2 or 3 zones is a
>>thing of the past, although some players may only have the ability to do
>>that, todays data both on screen and on video is way more sophisticated than
>>that, and the players who can take advaantage are all the better.
>>
>I don't think that timing (or upsetting it) is a thing of the past. Most
>pitchers have at least 3 pitches they can throw: fastball, breaking ball, and a
>change up. The problem is, there are some nights where they might have only one
>or two pitches that are working for them.
>
>There are pitchers that can get outs consistently by having just 2 pitches. Like
>a good fastball and a change up to complement it. If watching a hitter look
>foolish swinging way before a change up gets to the plate doesn't convince
>you--nothing will.
>
>Pitchers prey on the hitter's weaknesses. If a hitter can't lay off an outside
>breaking pitch with 2 strikes on him, any good pitcher will throw that pitch
>every single time until the hitter can learn to lay off of it.
>
>Willie Mays used to swing at pitches early in a game and intentionally miss. He
>wanted to give the pitcher the false confidence to throw that pitch again with
>the game on the line. Of course, I'm writing about a HOF player who is
>considered to one of the best of all time.
>
>If pitching was not upsetting timing, pitchers like Jamie Moyer and Greg Maddux
>would have retired a long time ago.
>
>Mark


It's kind of obvious from his hitting that Sandoval doesn't have a lot
of week spots in his strike zone. It the ball is within reach, he's
more likely to hit it than miss it.

Throw a sinker and he'll go down after it and hit it. Throw it
outside and he'll lean out and thump it. Throw it inside and he'll
slide back and get it anyway.

He's a real rarity amongst hitters. No discipline, but he really
doesn't need it. It's almost as if, if they Giants mess with his
swing, they'll ruin it.