it's gone almighty quiet about the fiasco of this, anyone have any
views on the latest vote from Council or have you all lost interest?

ta,


hub.

On 2 Oct, 22:13, The Hub <n...@amsystem.co.uk> wrote:
> it's gone almighty quiet about the fiasco of this, anyone have any
> views on the latest vote from Council or have you all lost interest?
>
> ta,
>
> hub.

Just read the last few pages of this discussion

http://www.talkrowing.co.uk/talkrowing/index.php?showtopic=8672

The Hub wrote:
> it's gone almighty quiet about the fiasco of this, anyone have any
> views on the latest vote from Council or have you all lost interest?
>
> ta,
>
>
> hub.

That's one of the most enigmatic posts I've seen in a long time. Care
to add some more details or narrow down your audience by stating to
which region this is specific?

-KC

On 3 Oct, 17:45, KC <kc_n...@sonic.net> wrote:
> That's one of the most enigmatic posts I've seen in a long time.  Care
> to add some more details or narrow down your audience by stating to
> which region this is specific?

I suspect he means the Competition Review which has been going on in
Englandshire.

Can't say I think much of the proposals (the 2 boat rules makes things
even worse than they are now!). It's also going to make it fun when us
Scots go to race over the border with what is now a decidedly
different points scheme.

Rob.

On Oct 3, 5:57 pm, Rob Collings <robin.colli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I suspect he means the Competition Review which has been going on in
> Englandshire.
>

I've ventured to edit the subject, no offence intended, and I've not a
clue whether I did it right. [Yes, OK, I haven't a clue full stop]
Just now I'm wondering whether there's any use in a national points
system AT ALL. [Still England & Wales, sorry] I know of a crew in
London which needs points to enter an event next month, which is
waiting in October for a July regatta to report its results; I even
heard a whisper that results from a different May regatta reached our
national governing body at the beginning of October.
Sorry again to be anglocentric, but can anyone from an English regatta
explain what's so difficult about their systems? To an outsider it
seems like ..... the judges tell you who won the final ..... you count
how many crews appeared for the event ..... you punch their competitor
identity cards [so far I've done all of those, before sunset on race
day] before someone venerable gives them their prizes ..... and then
there's something about finalising the return on the internet that
takes several months? We need better systems, to make life tolerable
for our volunteers?

Richard

On Oct 3, 9:46 pm, rdupa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 3, 5:57 pm, Rob Collings <robin.colli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I suspect he means the Competition Review which has been going on in
> > Englandshire.
>
> I've ventured to edit the subject, no offence intended, and I've not a
> clue whether I did it right. [Yes, OK, I haven't a clue full stop]
> Just now I'm wondering whether there's any use in a national points
> system AT ALL. [Still England & Wales, sorry] I know of a crew in
> London which needs points to enter an event next month, which is
> waiting in October for a July regatta to report its results; I even
> heard a whisper that results from a different May regatta reached our
> national governing body at the beginning of October.
> Sorry again to be anglocentric, but can anyone from an English regatta
> explain what's so difficult about their systems? To an outsider it
> seems like ..... the judges tell you who won the final ..... you count
> how many crews appeared for the event ..... you punch their competitor
> identity cards [so far I've done all of those, before sunset on race
> day] before someone venerable gives them their prizes ..... and then
> there's something about finalising the return on the internet that
> takes several months? We need better systems, to make life tolerable
> for our volunteers?
>
> Richard

I agree but any system must rely upon volunteers and they are a
diminishing breed. We see a lot of comment from active coaches and
competitors, who want everything to be just right for them or their
crew, but so few step forward to help when they retire from active
competition. In fact increased veteran (masters) events encourage them
to continue racing past their senior sell-by date and NOT help the
ageing breed of umpires, regatta secretaries etc. Any thoughts on how
to solve this problem?

BTW 'silver surfers' are very helpful when using computers for timing
and OARA etc.

On 3 Oct, 21:46, rdupa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> [Still England & Wales, sorry] I know of a crew in
> London which needs points to enter an event next month, which is
> waiting in October for a July regatta to report its results; I even

Is this another "feature" of OARA? I would have thought a word with
the organisers would be able to sort something like this out. Not that
there's really any excuse for the tardy regatta, but a system that
relies on these submissions when they seem to be known to be
unreliable seems rather flawed too...

Rob.

<pdblaseby@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3b51e757-c6d6-4f3c-bb23-33994c28bef6@d31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I agree but any system must rely upon volunteers and they are a
diminishing breed. We see a lot of comment from active coaches and
competitors, who want everything to be just right for them or their
crew, but so few step forward to help when they retire from active
competition. In fact increased veteran (masters) events encourage them
to continue racing past their senior sell-by date and NOT help the
ageing breed of umpires, regatta secretaries etc. Any thoughts on how
to solve this problem?

Cutting down on bureaucracy and paperwork would be a good start.

On Oct 4, 2:12 pm, "Edgar" <ejc...@REMOVEonline.no> wrote:
> <pdblas...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3b51e757-c6d6-4f3c-bb23-33994c28bef6@d31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>  I agree but any system must rely upon volunteers and they are a
> diminishing breed. We see a lot of comment from active coaches and
> competitors, who want everything to be just right for them or their
> crew, but so few step forward to help when they retire from active
> competition. In fact increased veteran (masters) events encourage them
> to continue racing past their senior sell-by date and NOT help the
> ageing breed of umpires, regatta secretaries etc. Any thoughts on how
> to solve this problem?
>
>  Cutting down on bureaucracy and paperwork would be a good start.

Maybe the points system is broken, maybe it is British "club" rowing
that is broken... ask any provincial club if they have members between
20-35 years old and you'll get the answer of "no" or "only a few, not
enough to make a squad" as an answer... I think everyone was relying
on "rowing's cyclical you know, there's good years and bad years"
theory but the "up" cycle has failed to materialise as gym culture and
increased working hours has increased... if there were more club
rowers, there'd be more qualifying events, more points earned etc.

What's unsatisfactory about club regattas at present? Entering not
knowing if you'll get competition i.e. there are few S2 4+ races
anymore, having to double-up to ensure at least 2 races to justify
travel/loading/cost/effort, too many categories/events eg fours,
quads, doubles, singles.... meeting pot-hunters has not been a problem
in my experience once the Henley season is over.... even "crowding" at
Novice and S3 level as the report suggests has not been a problem as
our novices have had problems finding qualifying novice races!

This review seems to be a short-term fix. Other short-term fixes such
as (poor already overworked) regatta secretaries organising race
matching such as that done by Shrewsbury/Pengwern. However, it is long-
term fixes that are needed to identify what can be done to rebuild
"grass-root" club rowing that is needed in my opinion... the HRR/
Dorney1, Dorney2, and Dorney 3 type rowing is healthy but populated by
schools, universities and a few "super" clubs.

On 6 Oct, 10:46, JK <ja...@familyknight.co.uk> wrote:
> On Oct 4, 2:12 pm, "Edgar" <ejc...@REMOVEonline.no> wrote:
>
> > <pdblas...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:3b51e757-c6d6-4f3c-bb23-33994c28bef6@d31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com....
> >  I agree but any system must rely upon volunteers and they are a
> > diminishing breed. We see a lot of comment from active coaches and
> > competitors, who want everything to be just right for them or their
> > crew, but so few step forward to help when they retire from active
> > competition. In fact increased veteran (masters) events encourage them
> > to continue racing past their senior sell-by date and NOT help the
> > ageing breed of umpires, regatta secretaries etc. Any thoughts on how
> > to solve this problem?
>
> >  Cutting down on bureaucracy and paperwork would be a good start.
>
> Maybe the points system is broken, maybe it is British "club" rowing
> that is broken... ask any provincial club if they have members between
> 20-35 years old and you'll get the answer of "no" or "only a few, not
> enough to make a squad" as an answer... I think everyone was relying
> on "rowing's cyclical you know, there's good years and bad years"
> theory but the "up" cycle has failed to materialise as gym culture and
> increased working hours has increased... if there were more club
> rowers, there'd be more qualifying events, more points earned etc.
>
> What's unsatisfactory about club regattas at present? Entering not
> knowing if you'll get competition i.e. there are few S2 4+ races
> anymore, having to double-up to ensure at least 2 races to justify
> travel/loading/cost/effort, too many categories/events eg fours,
> quads, doubles, singles.... meeting pot-hunters has not been a problem
> in my experience once the Henley season is over.... even "crowding" at
> Novice and S3 level as the report suggests has not been a problem as
> our novices have had problems finding qualifying novice races!
>
> This review seems to be a short-term fix. Other short-term fixes such
> as (poor already overworked) regatta secretaries organising race
> matching such as that done by Shrewsbury/Pengwern. However, it is long-
> term fixes that are needed to identify what can be done to rebuild
> "grass-root" club rowing that is needed in my opinion... the HRR/
> Dorney1, Dorney2, and Dorney 3 type rowing is healthy but populated by
> schools, universities and a few "super" clubs.

You are absolutely right about the absence of 'senior men'. The fact
that young men and women have to work ever longer hours to move up the
career ladder has had a major impact; the short-term fix of gyms or
squash courts are very attractive compared to the hours which are
needed to be successful in the side-by-side regatta season. In fact
HOR's are more successful because of the 'ranking' which comes from
racing at your own pace.

So, the short answer is to make regatta racing more appropriate for
all levels of experience and training opportunities. The fact that
many crews have never progressed, despite winning, means that the more
casual competitor is discouraged from entering so one objective of the
proposal is to move these crews onwards and upwards, thus giving
others a better chance of satisfaction.

Another discouragement is the severe risk of seniors being beaten
easily by juniors and the proposals will lead to them moving up as
well.

In essence the regatta season needs to have a range of tiers which
satisfy the competitive aspirations of the wider rowing population,
i.e. Tier 1 - ML; Tier 2 - Top level river; Tier 3 - general club
level, not dominated by juniors and experienced student crews; Tier 4
- Primary level for newcomes of all ages.

So what is needed is a determination to introduce a series of changes
to the racing structure but on a progressive basis so that the impact
of each can be determined before the next is introduced. None of this
will be achieved overnight or without co-operation but I believe the
current proposal is a realistic start. The immediate challenge will be
for event secretaries to review their 'menu' of events based on their
recent attendance levels and the new classes.

> This review seems to be a short-term fix. Other short-term fixes such
> as (poor already overworked) regatta secretaries organising race
> matching such as that done by Shrewsbury/Pengwern.

If you mean the online version, I wouldn't be surprised if it meant
less work for the regatta secretary, since they did not run it, the
website guys did, and it will have saved phoning people once all the
entries were in to see if they want to do a different event.

What would have saved even more time this year, would have been if
OARA had decided not to have time off the Sunday before the regatta,
but we can't expect miracles.

Andrew

On Oct 3, 9:46 pm, rdupa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 3, 5:57 pm, Rob Collings <robin.colli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I suspect he means the Competition Review which has been going on in
> > Englandshire.
>
> I've ventured to edit the subject, no offence intended, and I've not a
> clue whether I did it right. [Yes, OK, I haven't a clue full stop]
> Just now I'm wondering whether there's any use in a national points
> system AT ALL. [Still England & Wales, sorry] I know of a crew in
> London which needs points to enter an event next month, which is
> waiting in October for a July regatta to report its results; I even
> heard a whisper that results from a different May regatta reached our
> national governing body at the beginning of October.
> Sorry again to be anglocentric, but can anyone from an English regatta
> explain what's so difficult about their systems? To an outsider it
> seems like ..... the judges tell you who won the final ..... you count
> how many crews appeared for the event ..... you punch their competitor
> identity cards [so far I've done all of those, before sunset on race
> day] before someone venerable gives them their prizes ..... and then
> there's something about finalising the return on the internet that
> takes several months? We need better systems, to make life tolerable
> for our volunteers?
>
> Richard

The OARA resukts entering is not the most user friendly part of it and
it can take a huge amount of time, If any part of it needs an overhaul
then it's this nbit. Regattas do pay a large premium for not getting
their results in on time and it should be made compulsory, that's the
only way it'll work effectively.

Getting back to the original question, what is wrong with what was
decided?

c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> On Oct 3, 9:46 pm, rdupa...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Oct 3, 5:57 pm, Rob Collings <robin.colli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I suspect he means the Competition Review which has been going on in
>>> Englandshire.
>> I've ventured to edit the subject, no offence intended, and I've not a
>> clue whether I did it right. [Yes, OK, I haven't a clue full stop]
>> Just now I'm wondering whether there's any use in a national points
>> system AT ALL. [Still England & Wales, sorry] I know of a crew in
>> London which needs points to enter an event next month, which is
>> waiting in October for a July regatta to report its results; I even
>> heard a whisper that results from a different May regatta reached our
>> national governing body at the beginning of October.
>> Sorry again to be anglocentric, but can anyone from an English regatta
>> explain what's so difficult about their systems? To an outsider it
>> seems like ..... the judges tell you who won the final ..... you count
>> how many crews appeared for the event ..... you punch their competitor
>> identity cards [so far I've done all of those, before sunset on race
>> day] before someone venerable gives them their prizes ..... and then
>> there's something about finalising the return on the internet that
>> takes several months? We need better systems, to make life tolerable
>> for our volunteers?
>>
>> Richard
>
> The OARA resukts entering is not the most user friendly part of it and
> it can take a huge amount of time, If any part of it needs an overhaul
> then it's this nbit. Regattas do pay a large premium for not getting
> their results in on time and it should be made compulsory, that's the
> only way it'll work effectively.
>
> Getting back to the original question, what is wrong with what was
> decided?

Still not getting back to the original question - over the winter I'm
going to work with the developers of a commercial regatta management
software, Regatta Master, to try and get a results output that can be
uploaded into OARA. I'll be happy to advise anybody who is interested
in using RM, but at present it still needs some "localisation" for UK
use, such as loading composite entries from OARA. This is in hand. We
are going to use RM at Nat Champs next year.

David.