x-no-archive: yes

OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP


Who in baseball made the most OUTS in his career?
Do you know who is second, third?

The answers *may* surprise you, depending upon your baseball smarts!

Answers will be given in another day, late Saturday, unless
someone guesses them before.

Hint: a player named 'Frank Snyder' ranks 1,000th with 3,225 OUTS.

Hint 2: Albert Pujols (8 seasons) ranks 964th with 3,273 OUTS.

A wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
>
> Who in baseball made the most OUTS in his career?
> Do you know who is second, third?
>
> The answers *may* surprise you, depending upon your baseball smarts!
>
> Answers will be given in another day, late Saturday, unless
> someone guesses them before.
>
> Hint: a player named 'Frank Snyder' ranks 1,000th with 3,225 OUTS.
>
> Hint 2: Albert Pujols (8 seasons) ranks 964th with 3,273 OUTS.

I believe that this is another one of Pete Rose's records (his records
still count...right?).

He is followed, I think, by Hank Aaron and then Carl Yastremski.

I remember reading a newspaper article about Yastremski's retirement
party. He was presented with a bat that had hundreds of holes drilled
through it.

x-no-archive: yes

"Jeffrey Alsip" <jeffreyalsip@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:639feb69-aa03-4934-aa3c-404eedafcc08@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>A wrote:
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>>
>>
>> Who in baseball made the most OUTS in his career?
>> Do you know who is second, third?
>>
>> The answers *may* surprise you, depending upon your baseball smarts!
>>
>> Answers will be given in another day, late Saturday, unless
>> someone guesses them before.
>>
>> Hint: a player named 'Frank Snyder' ranks 1,000th with 3,225 OUTS.
>>
>> Hint 2: Albert Pujols (8 seasons) ranks 964th with 3,273 OUTS.
>
> I believe that this is another one of Pete Rose's records (his records
> still count...right?).
>
> He is followed, I think, by Hank Aaron and then Carl Yastremski.
>
> I remember reading a newspaper article about Yastremski's retirement
> party. He was presented with a bat that had hundreds of holes drilled
> through it.

How did it resemble a bat after all the holes in it? <g>

Oh, a real smartguy.
Yeah, you nailed 'em all.
Congratulations.
Rose is the only man in baseball history to attain 10,000 OUTS.
For all his hits, he still made almost 2 1/2 times as many OUTS!
I thought the OUTS question was a rare one in the baseball world
of
statistics since most people only focus on the positive such as Hits and
HRs.
Interesting that exc. for: the aforementioned Rose, the
recently-retired Biggio (and Palmeiro), and the still-active O. Vizquel, and
Andre Dawson (Henderson up for election in Jan. '09 and a cinch to make it
on his first try)
the remainder are all in the Hall of Fame.
I love the tie between Frank Robinson and Ozzie Smith!
Smith, therefore, is just as good a hitter as Robby since he made
the same number of OUTS.
<j/k>

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/Outs_career.shtml
Top 25 OUTS career leaderboard
(active players BOLD)

1. Rose 10,328 [nobody within 1,191 of P.R. on out-making]
2. Aaron 9,136
3. Yaz 9,126 [a mere 10 behind Aaron]
4. Ripken 8,893
5. Murray 8,570
6. Henderson 8,510
7. Winfield 8,422
8. Yount 8,415
9. B. Robinson 8,340
10. Biggio 8,273
11. Aparicio 8,110
12. Mays 8,056
13. Molitor 8,040
14. Maranville 7,887
15. Palmeiro 7,857
16. Brock 7,823
17. VIZQUEL 7,754
18. Cobb 7,718
19. Musial 7,704
20. Brett 7,673
21. R. Jackson 7,659
22. Dawson 7,621
23. Kaline 7,594
24. F. Robinson 7,528
24. O. Smith 7,528

In article <qYOdncqZGpXfTkDVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"A" <aaaz@att.net> wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
> OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
>
> Who in baseball made the most OUTS in his career?
> Do you know who is second, third?
>
> The answers *may* surprise you, depending upon your baseball smarts!

Why would the answer surprise ANYONE. This discussion comes up every
time that ass Rose Committee rears his ugly head.

--
JD

"...if you think the 'Star Wars' prequels are a disease, then
'Serenity' is the cure."

On Sep 26, 11:31�pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> Do you know who is second, third?
>

Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.

It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
locker room.

In article
<df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2cf4d@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
"rosecomm4256@aol.com" <rosecomm4256@aol.com> wrote:

> On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
> >
> > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > Do you know who is second, third?
> >
>
> Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> locker room.

Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.

--
JD

"...if you think the 'Star Wars' prequels are a disease, then
'Serenity' is the cure."

On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > x-no-archive: yes
>
> > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > Do you know who is second, third?
>
> > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > locker room.
>
> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.

Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.

--
Will in New Haven

On Sep 27, 6:00 am, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Jeffrey Alsip" <jeffreyal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:639feb69-aa03-4934-aa3c-404eedafcc08@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >A wrote:
> >> x-no-archive: yes
>
> >> OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> >> Who in baseball made the most OUTS in his career?
> >> Do you know who is second, third?
>
> >> The answers *may* surprise you, depending upon your baseball smarts!
>
> >> Answers will be given in another day, late Saturday, unless
> >> someone guesses them before.
>
> >> Hint: a player named 'Frank Snyder' ranks 1,000th with 3,225 OUTS.
>
> >> Hint 2: Albert Pujols (8 seasons) ranks 964th with 3,273 OUTS.
>
> > I believe that this is another one of Pete Rose's records (his records
> > still count...right?).
>
> > He is followed, I think, by Hank Aaron and then Carl Yastremski.
>
> > I remember reading a newspaper article about Yastremski's retirement
> > party. He was presented with a bat that had hundreds of holes drilled
> > through it.
>
>            How did it resemble a bat after all the holes in it? <g>
>
>            Oh, a real smartguy.
>            Yeah, you nailed 'em all.
>            Congratulations.

Of course I knew this. I am a fan of the Great Chicago Cubs. As this
season demonstrated, we are ALL a cut above the normal. Please feel
free to be honored by the fact that I took some precious seconds out
of my day to answer your question....I do have a glorious, honor-
filled POSTSEASON to look forward to.

Please try to invite a member of your loser team over to your
house....so they can watch the post-season with you on television. You
can, occasionally, turn your head to them and say: "Hey! Remember when
WE were great once?"

"Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>> In article
>> <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
>> > > x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>>
>> > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
>> > > Do you know who is second, third?
>>
>> > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>>
>> > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
>> > locker room.
>>
>> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.




....and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught Stealing.






>
> --
> Will in New Haven
>

"Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:AN6dneDvW8R1dkPVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
> news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
> >
> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.

And he was the worst first baseman of all-time.

> ...and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught
Stealing.

I'm pretty sure he owns the *career* record for caught stealing too.

"Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote in message
news:6k8n2mF6h5agU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:AN6dneDvW8R1dkPVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
>> news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>> >
>> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
>> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> And he was the worst first baseman of all-time.
>
>> ...and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught
> Stealing.
>
> I'm pretty sure he owns the *career* record for caught stealing too.
>



I thought that was probably the case, but I didn't feel like looking it up.





>

x-no-archive: yes

"Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Q8adnRZ8y_kLukLVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote in message
> news:6k8n2mF6h5agU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:AN6dneDvW8R1dkPVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>>> >
>>> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
>>> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>>
>> And he was the worst first baseman of all-time.
>>
>>> ...and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught
>> Stealing.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure he owns the *career* record for caught stealing too.


> I thought that was probably the case, but I didn't feel like looking it
> up.
CS CS
CAREER SINGLE-SEASON
335 for Rickey. 42 for Rickey. (1982; stole 130)
307 for Brock. 38 for Cobb. (1915; stole 96)

On Sep 27, 5:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > x-no-archive: yes
>
> > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > Do you know who is second, third?
>
> > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > locker room.
>
> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> --
> JD
>
> "...if you think the 'Star Wars' prequels are a disease, then
> 'Serenity' is the cure."



Hi Jeanne!

Mickey Mantle said of Pete Rose, "If I had that many singles when I
played, I'd of wore a dress."

:-)

Tom

In article
<82e3ba48-c472-4819-aeb0-e4396d97c939@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Tom <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:

> On Sep 27, 5:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >  "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
> >
> > > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > > Do you know who is second, third?
> >
> > > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
> >
> > > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > > locker room.
> >
> > Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
> >
> > --
> > JD
> >
> > "...if you think the 'Star Wars' prequels are a disease, then
> > 'Serenity' is the cure."
>
>
>
> Hi Jeanne!
>
> Mickey Mantle said of Pete Rose, "If I had that many singles when I
> played, I'd of wore a dress."
>
> :-)

Yay Mick!!!

--
JD

"...if you think the 'Star Wars' prequels are a disease, then
'Serenity' is the cure."

"A" <aaaz@att.net> wrote in message
news:s5WdnbupddrP9kLVnZ2dnUVZ_rLinZ2d@earthlink.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Q8adnRZ8y_kLukLVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote in message
>> news:6k8n2mF6h5agU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:AN6dneDvW8R1dkPVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>>>> >
>>>> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
>>>> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>>>
>>> And he was the worst first baseman of all-time.
>>>
>>>> ...and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught
>>> Stealing.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure he owns the *career* record for caught stealing too.
>
>
>> I thought that was probably the case, but I didn't feel like looking it
>> up.
> CS CS
> CAREER SINGLE-SEASON
> 335 for Rickey. 42 for Rickey. (1982; stole 130)
> 307 for Brock. 38 for Cobb. (1915; stole 96)
>
>



thanks.






>
>

On Sep 27, 11:43�pm, "Bill Kawalec" <billkawa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Awesome Lincecum" <Lince...@sf.giants> wrote in message
>
> news:6k8n2mF6h5agU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Bill Kawalec" <billkawa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:AN6dneDvW8R1dkPVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> >> "Will in New Haven" <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
> >>news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com....
> >> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >> >> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> >> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> >> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> > And he was the worst first baseman of all-time.
>
> >> ...and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught
> > Stealing.
>
> > I'm pretty sure he owns the *career* record for caught stealing too.
>
> I thought that was probably the case, but I didn't feel like looking it up.
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Those five-year-old girls take all of your energy? (Not that you had
much to begin with.)

On Sep 27, 8:44 pm, Will in New Haven
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > > x-no-archive: yes
>
> > > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> > > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > > Do you know who is second, third?
>
> > > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> > > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > > locker room.
>
> > Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> --
> Will in New Haven- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Myself, I just wish I had the kind of baseball talent that I could
play long enough to make more outs than anyone who had ever played.
You dont do that by being a bad player. Pete got a hit or two along
the way, won a game or two along the way, and won a championship or
two along the way, as well.

All in all, I'd say he was a pretty good baseball player, if not a
good gambler.

<coachrose13@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:747ec185-df11-4fd0-ab37-eb16746e5a78@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 27, 8:44 pm, Will in New Haven
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > > x-no-archive: yes
>
> > > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> > > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > > Do you know who is second, third?
>
> > > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> > > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > > locker room.
>
> > Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> --
> Will in New Haven- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Myself, I just wish I had the kind of baseball talent that I could
play long enough to make more outs than anyone who had ever played.
You dont do that by being a bad player. Pete got a hit or two along
the way, won a game or two along the way, and won a championship or
two along the way, as well.



*************************************
you're right. I remember people saying Reggie Jackson shouldn't be in the
Hall of Fame because he struck out too much. You wonder what goes through
their minds...

<coachrose13@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:747ec185-df11-4fd0-ab37-eb16746e5a78@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Myself, I just wish I had the kind of baseball talent that I could
> play long enough to make more outs than anyone who had ever played.
> You dont do that by being a bad player.

Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8 years.

Awesome Lincecum wrote:

> Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8 years.

Pete Rose should not have written himself into the lineup at the very
end of his career, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was
the worst first baseman in the league for *8 years*. Here are Rose's
OPS+ figures for his last eight years as a starting first baseman:

1988: 119
1979: 130
1980: 94
1981: 119
1982: 90
1983: 69
1984: 99
1985: 99


For the first four of those eight years, Rose is basically near league
average; he's nowhere near the worst first baseman in the league. He
really tails off in his last four years. But even then, it was only in
his awful 1983 year that he was the worst 1B in the league. In 1985,
his last year as a starter, Rose hit better than a few first basemen,
including the Giants 1B starter that year--the very forgettable David Green.

As long as we're bagging on Giants first basemen, it's fair to point out
that Rose hit better than 2008 Bowker/Aurilia for seven of the last
eight seasons of his career.

-Brent







------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
Want to have instant messaging, and chat rooms, and discussion
groups for your local users or business, you need dbabble!
-- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dbabble.htm ----

Awesome Lincecum <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:
> <coachrose13@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Myself, I just wish I had the kind of baseball talent that I could
>> play long enough to make more outs than anyone who had ever played.
>> You dont do that by being a bad player.

> Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the
> league for 8 years.

As a fielder, he was less error-prone at 1st with an error
once every 19 games (.994). At 2nd (.961) and 3rd (.975),
he could be counted on for an error once every 10 games.
Overall he was a mediocre fielder with a well-below average
arm.

Also I suspect (which means I didn't look it up) that the
jerk has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, slugging
average minus batting average (SA - BA) of 20th century
ballplayers who hit 100 doubles, triples, and homeruns.

Dick

On Sep 30, 12:20 am, coachros...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 27, 8:44 pm, Will in New Haven
>
>
>
> <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article
> > > <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > > > x-no-archive: yes
>
> > > > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> > > > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > > > Do you know who is second, third?
>
> > > > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> > > > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > > > locker room.
>
> > > Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> > --
> > Will in New Haven- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Myself, I just wish I had the kind of baseball talent that I could
> play long enough to make more outs than anyone who had ever played.
> You dont do that by being a bad player. Pete got a hit or two along
> the way, won a game or two along the way, and won a championship or
> two along the way, as well.
>
> All in all, I'd say he was a pretty good baseball player, if not a
> good gambler.

He was certainly a HoF player but, very possibly because of the
controversy, it is very common to run into people who oeverrate him.
One reason he got all those Hits and Outs was because he got to write
his name into the lineup for the last several years of his career.
Just like Connie Mack got to lose all those ballgames as manager
because he owned the team.

He was a great player but not one who should have been picked ahead
of, for one, Frank Robinson on the All-Century Team. It is very easy
to go three-deep on an all-time all-star team without having to
consider Rose.

--
Will in New Haven

In article
<b2764480-5178-4aae-9b86-6ad18364250c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com says...

>He was a great player but not one who should have been picked ahead
>of, for one, Frank Robinson on the All-Century Team. It is very easy
>to go three-deep on an all-time all-star team without having to
>consider Rose.

True...though I'd probably include him on any sort of all-time team that
actually is built as a team. There's certainly a place for a utility player,
and Rose would fill that role quite well.


-Tim

"Brent Peterson" <brentpeterson01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:48e28a86$1@darkstar...
> Awesome Lincecum wrote:
>
> > Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8
years.
>
> Pete Rose should not have written himself into the lineup at the very
> end of his career, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was
> the worst first baseman in the league for *8 years*. Here are Rose's
> OPS+ figures for his last eight years as a starting first baseman:
>
> 1988: 119
> 1979: 130
> 1980: 94
> 1981: 119
> 1982: 90
> 1983: 69
> 1984: 99
> 1985: 99
>
>
> For the first four of those eight years, Rose is basically near league
> average; he's nowhere near the worst first baseman in the league.

Yeah, if you compare him to the league's average which include SS and 2B,
not to mention all the replacement level and bench players, he might have
been around league average. But I'm talking about 1B. A simple way to test
if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting 1B with OPS lower than his.
You can't. He was the worst *1B* of all time (not the worst player period).
You really think a 1B with OPS in the .600s was not a bad 1B??? Do you want
a .600s OPS 1B on your team, one who hit zero HRs per year?

> He
> really tails off in his last four years. But even then, it was only in
> his awful 1983 year that he was the worst 1B in the league. In 1985,
> his last year as a starter, Rose hit better than a few first basemen,
> including the Giants 1B starter that year--the very forgettable David
Green.

Was David Green a real starting 1B? David Green had 294 ABs that year, and
some of those ABs were not as a 1B. You can call Green a real 1B if you
want, but he wasn't. He was a real 1B as much as Shinjo was a real DH. But
if you're comparing Rose to Green, then you're proving my point. Green's
career lasted about 4 years (career over by age 26). He was a replacement
level player, not a real starting anything.

> As long as we're bagging on Giants first basemen, it's fair to point out
> that Rose hit better than 2008 Bowker/Aurilia for seven of the last
> eight seasons of his career.

And you consider Bowker/Aurilia real starting 1B? :-) If you're comparing
Rose to replacement level players, then I rest my case.

How about this: if you keep hitting zero HRs for the whole year, year after
year, you're not a real 1B.

On Sep 30, 4:18 pm, Brent Peterson <brentpeterso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Awesome Lincecum wrote:

> > Check the stats.  He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8 years.
>
> Pete Rose should not have written himself into the lineup at the very
> end of his career, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was
> the worst first baseman in the league for *8 years*.  Here are Rose's
> OPS+ figures for his last eight years as a starting first baseman:

It's pretty clear he drew the line in the wrong place. 1979 was
a good year. 1980 to 81 he wasn't too far below average combined.
Call it a 97 positional OPS+.

Afer that though:

625 games of an OBP of .348 to go with a SLG of .315.

An OPS+ of 86 at a position where you shouldn't have a
problem finding somebody who can hit.

Yeah, in any given year (except 1983 perhaps -- not interested
in checking the race for the basement) you can find worse. Still
a stunningly bad extended run of play.

On Sep 28, 7:32 am, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Bill Kawalec" <billkawa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Q8adnRZ8y_kLukLVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Awesome Lincecum" <Lince...@sf.giants> wrote in message
> >news:6k8n2mF6h5agU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> "Bill Kawalec" <billkawa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:AN6dneDvW8R1dkPVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> >>> "Will in New Haven" <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:4da3e2f4-76c6-49b8-b7f9-acbd0157a315@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com....
> >>> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >>> >> Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> >>> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> >>> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> >> And he was the worst first baseman of all-time.
>
> >>> ...and Rickey Henderson holds the single season record for Caught
> >> Stealing.
>
> >> I'm pretty sure he owns the *career* record for caught stealing too.
> > I thought that was probably the case, but I didn't feel like looking it
> > up.
>
>                   CS                             CS
>                 CAREER                 SINGLE-SEASON
>                 335 for Rickey.          42 forRickey. (1982; stole 130)
>                 307 for Brock.            38 for Cobb. (1915; stole 96)

Except we don't have the complete caught stealing stats for Cobb
(65% success rate for the years we have), Eddie Collins (65%),
Speaker (56%) (Yeah, most of the data comes from the last
part of their career, but we do have a few years of their
prime and none of them had substantially better SB% in
their prime)

I'd rate it improbable that anybody's actually close to Cobb
in caught stealing and Eddie Collins stands a pretty fair chance
of being second.

No basis at all to guess where Billy Hamilton
or Arlie Latham rank, and the limited data for Max Carey
says he had an unusally good SB% for his day. We've only
got Wagner at 41 and I don't think that tells us anything.

One truly fascinating indication of the way the
game was played in the dead ball era: There's a very
high correlation between team stolen base attempts
and team times on first.

Basically if there was a runner on first with two outs
he tried to steal second ... and maybe third. (SB%
were terrible -- 55% in the NL in 1915 for instance)

If there were fewer than two outs, some kind of play
(straight steal, hit and run or sac) was put on.
Didn't matter who was at the plate (Eddie Collins was
one of the top hitters in the game and has the record
for sacs by a huge margin. Speaker's 10th and Cobb is
12th)

On Sep 30, 10:06 pm, The Enigmatic One <t...@again.spammers> wrote:
> In article
> <b2764480-5178-4aae-9b86-6ad183642...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com says...
>
> >He was a great player but not one who should have been picked ahead
> >of, for one, Frank Robinson on the All-Century Team. It is very easy
> >to go three-deep on an all-time all-star team without having to
> >consider Rose.
>
> True...though I'd probably include him on any sort of all-time team that
> actually is built as a team.  There's certainly a place for a utility player,
> and Rose would fill that role quite well.

Gary Huckabay actually rated Tony Phillips ahead of Rose
precisely because he had real versatility. Rose was a fine
corner outfielder and didn't mind playing infield for the
good of the team, but Phillips was a good corner outfielder,
a fine second-baseman, not bad at third and could fake
center or short if required in an emergency.

Looks like an over-reaction to me though. Personally my idea
of covering multiple positions involves Honus Wagner
(who was good at every position) and another shortstop.

In article <6kgdl3F7ldjnU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:

> A simple way to test if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting
> 1B with OPS lower than his. You can't. He was the worst *1B* of all
> time (not the worst player period). You really think a 1B with OPS in
> the .600s was not a bad 1B??? Do you want a .600s OPS 1B on your
> team, one who hit zero HRs per year?

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Johnny Sturm.

Regular 1B for the 1941 New York Yankees (124 of the 154 games),
239/293/300 - OK, I guess technically he wasn't a .600 OPS 1B,
he only got up to .593, but Williams & DiMaggio were hogging all
the hits that season. His OPS+ was 58, I repeat, 58.

He did hit 3 home runs, undoubtedly contributing to the Yankees' 101
victories and 17 game margin over 2nd place Boston.

See also Charlie Grimm, 1920; Buddy Hassett, 1940;
Tony Bartirome, 1952; no doubt a few others.

--
Gerry Myerson (gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai) (i -> u for email)
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
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On Sep 30, 10:06 pm, The Enigmatic One <t...@again.spammers> wrote:
> In article
> <b2764480-5178-4aae-9b86-6ad183642...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com says...
>
> >He was a great player but not one who should have been picked ahead
> >of, for one, Frank Robinson on the All-Century Team. It is very easy
> >to go three-deep on an all-time all-star team without having to
> >consider Rose.
>
> True...though I'd probably include him on any sort of all-time team that
> actually is built as a team. There's certainly a place for a utility player,
> and Rose would fill that role quite well.

Yes, if you were picking a starter and then another starter at each
position, it would be a long time before you, or at least I, got to
Pete Rose. If, however, you had a bunch of all-time all-stars as
starters and were picking reserves, it is very possible that Pete Rose
would have a role to play.

I think if you had, say Schmidt, McCovey, Ted Williams and Hank Aaron
playing the positions he could play, Rose would be fine in the
clubhouse and accept being a reserve. You might really have a problem
with Cobb, even a color-blind Cobb, accepting playing behind Mays (or
Mantle) and Williams and Aaron (or Ruth, etc)

--
Will in New Haven

"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
Alfred Tennyson - "Ulysses"

Awesome Lincecum wrote:
> "Brent Peterson" <brentpeterson01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:48e28a86$1@darkstar...
>> Awesome Lincecum wrote:
>>
>>> Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8
> years.
>> Pete Rose should not have written himself into the lineup at the very
>> end of his career, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was
>> the worst first baseman in the league for *8 years*. Here are Rose's
>> OPS+ figures for his last eight years as a starting first baseman:
>>
>> 1978: 119
>> 1979: 130
>> 1980: 94
>> 1981: 119
>> 1982: 90
>> 1983: 69
>> 1984: 99
>> 1985: 99
>>
>>
>> For the first four of those eight years, Rose is basically near league
>> average; he's nowhere near the worst first baseman in the league.
>
> Yeah, if you compare him to the league's average which include SS and 2B,
> not to mention all the replacement level and bench players, he might have
> been around league average.

No. For the first four of those eight years, Rose was basically near
league average for a 1B.


> But I'm talking about 1B.

So was I.


> A simple way to test
> if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting 1B with OPS lower than his.

From 1978 to 1981? I'm not going to bother finding all the starting 1B
with lower OPS figures than Rose during those years, but there must have
been quite a few. Here, again, are Rose OPS+ stats, this time with the
average NL OPS+ for 1B (for the particular year) in parenthesis.


1978: 119 (115)
1979: 130 (119)
1980: 94 (119)
1981: 119 (119)

So, he was slightly better than the league average for first basemen in
1978 and 1979, pretty bad in 1980, and then dead-on average in 1981.
Rose wasn't Lou Gehrig, but the stats support the claim that Rose was
about league average for a 1B for the first four of the last eight years
of his career.



>> As long as we're bagging on Giants first basemen, it's fair to point out
>> that Rose hit better than 2008 Bowker/Aurilia for seven of the last
>> eight seasons of his career.
>
> And you consider Bowker/Aurilia real starting 1B? :-) If you're comparing
> Rose to replacement level players, then I rest my case.


The point of bringing up the example of Bowker/Aurilia (and David Greeen
earlier) was to make the obligatory references to how poorly the Giants
have fared at 1B over the last thirty years (save for 7 years of Will
Clark). I certainly wasn't saying that Rose deserved to start at 1B
because he was better than Green, Bowker, or Aurilia. As I said, Rose
really tailed off at the end of his career, and he should not have
written himself into the lineup. But I don't think, as you wrote, that
Rose "was the worst first baseman in the league for 8 years." The last
4 years? Okay. But the last 8 years? You're just wrong on that.

-Brent

"Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:98d15e1f-5b7f-43cd-a168-a89a000c3032@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 30, 10:06 pm, The Enigmatic One <t...@again.spammers> wrote:
> > In article
> > <b2764480-5178-4aae-9b86-6ad183642...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com says...
> >
> > >He was a great player but not one who should have been picked ahead
> > >of, for one, Frank Robinson on the All-Century Team. It is very easy
> > >to go three-deep on an all-time all-star team without having to
> > >consider Rose.
> >
> > True...though I'd probably include him on any sort of all-time team that
> > actually is built as a team. There's certainly a place for a utility
player,
> > and Rose would fill that role quite well.
>
> Yes, if you were picking a starter and then another starter at each
> position, it would be a long time before you, or at least I, got to
> Pete Rose. If, however, you had a bunch of all-time all-stars as
> starters and were picking reserves, it is very possible that Pete Rose
> would have a role to play.
>
> I think if you had, say Schmidt, McCovey, Ted Williams and Hank Aaron
> playing the positions he could play, Rose would be fine in the
> clubhouse and accept being a reserve. You might really have a problem
> with Cobb, even a color-blind Cobb, accepting playing behind Mays (or
> Mantle) and Williams and Aaron (or Ruth, etc)

Just don't let Rose be the manager too, or he will write himself into the
lineup everyday.

"Gerry Myerson" <gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
news:gerry-B7A955.09315202102008@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
> In article <6kgdl3F7ldjnU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:
>
> > A simple way to test if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting
> > 1B with OPS lower than his. You can't. He was the worst *1B* of all
> > time (not the worst player period). You really think a 1B with OPS in
> > the .600s was not a bad 1B??? Do you want a .600s OPS 1B on your
> > team, one who hit zero HRs per year?
>
> Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Johnny Sturm.

Perhaps we need to clarify what constitutes a real starting 1B. A real
starting 1B is someone who had a lengthy career as a starting 1B, not
someone who was given a one year trial and then disappeared from earth.
This Sturm guy had a 1 year career. Obviously he wasn't even close to being
a real 1B. Rose played *8* years as a 1B, so how about using 8 years as a
starting 1B as a guideline of a "real starting 1B"? Would any team let
Sturm play 8 years at 1B? Obviously not. He wasn't even good enough to be
a 25th guy on the team; gone after 1 year.


> See also Charlie Grimm, 1920;

Hey this guy had a long career at 1B, so he qualifies. Too bad, he had
..700+ OPS for most of his career, with only 2 years below .700. Way better
than Rose. Good choice though.


> Buddy Hassett, 1940;

This guy only had 4 years of 100+ games as a 1B (7 year career), so I'm not
sure if he really qualifies as a real starting 1B either, but he's close.
Yet he still had more .700+ OPS in his career than sub-.700, unlike Rose who
was mostly in the .600s as a 1B.

> Tony Bartirome, 1952;

Another guy with a 1 year career, at age 20, and never made it back. You're
trying really hard. ;-)

But just the fact that these are the guys you're comparing to Rose tells you
what kind of player Rose was for *8* years: really sucked! Thanks for
proving my point.

"Brent Peterson" <brentpeterson01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:48e41da3$1@darkstar...
> Awesome Lincecum wrote:
> > "Brent Peterson" <brentpeterson01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:48e28a86$1@darkstar...
> >> Awesome Lincecum wrote:
> >>
> >>> Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8
> > years.
> >> Pete Rose should not have written himself into the lineup at the very
> >> end of his career, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was
> >> the worst first baseman in the league for *8 years*. Here are Rose's
> >> OPS+ figures for his last eight years as a starting first baseman:
> >>
> >> 1978: 119
> >> 1979: 130
> >> 1980: 94
> >> 1981: 119
> >> 1982: 90
> >> 1983: 69
> >> 1984: 99
> >> 1985: 99
> >>
> >>
> >> For the first four of those eight years, Rose is basically near league
> >> average; he's nowhere near the worst first baseman in the league.
> >
> > Yeah, if you compare him to the league's average which include SS and
2B,
> > not to mention all the replacement level and bench players, he might
have
> > been around league average.
>
> No. For the first four of those eight years, Rose was basically near
> league average for a 1B.

LOL. First of all, why are you counting 1978, where he played exactly 2
games at 1B??? Try starting in 1979. :-) His first 4 years he hit 4, 1,
0, and 3 HRs. That's an a league average 1B? 4 freakin years combined and
he couldn't hit 10 HRs. That makes JT Snow look like a HOFer.

> > But I'm talking about 1B.
>
> So was I.
>
>
> > A simple way to test
> > if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting 1B with OPS lower than
his.
>
> From 1978 to 1981?

Uh, wrong!

> I'm not going to bother finding all the starting 1B
> with lower OPS figures than Rose during those years,

Because that would be really hard. Note I'm talking about real starting 1B,
not bench players and minor league tryouts.

> but there must have
> been quite a few. Here, again, are Rose OPS+ stats, this time with the
> average NL OPS+ for 1B (for the particular year) in parenthesis.
>
>
> 1978: 119 (115)
> 1979: 130 (119)
> 1980: 94 (119)
> 1981: 119 (119)

This 1B OPS+ includes tons of bench players, minor league tryouts like
Bowker, and guys like Jose Vizcaino getting ABs at 1B, right? How many of
those were *real* 1B, guys who *started* 8 years at 1B like Rose did?

And what you don't seem to get is that I'm talking about Rose was the worst
starting 1B for those 8 years as a whole. I'm not talking about each
indivial year. It would not be too difficult to find 1Bs that are worse
than Rose for 1 year; there's always the Bowkers, Lance Niekro, etc.
(Still, Bowker hit more HRs in 1 year, or 3/4 of a year, than Rose did in
his first 4 years *combined*!)


> So, he was slightly better than the league average for first basemen in
> 1978 and 1979,

He was a 3B in 1978. He was decent in 1979.

> pretty bad in 1980, and then dead-on average in 1981.

1981: 0 HR, 781 OPS. Is that a real starting 1B? Do you want a guy with
these numbers on your team for 8 years at 1B? Seriously... (And that was
his 2nd best year in those 8 years.)

> Rose wasn't Lou Gehrig,

LOL.

> but the stats support the claim that Rose was
> about league average for a 1B for the first four of the last eight years
> of his career.

You're of course dead wrong, since if you count the *correct* 4 years, his
4th year had a .683 OPS. Horrible for a 1B. But if you feel like using
stats that count the Lance Niekros and the John Bowkers of the world to make
you feel better about Rose, be my guest. I boldly predict Lance Niekro and
John Bowker will not have a 8-year career as a starting 1B. ;-)


> >> As long as we're bagging on Giants first basemen, it's fair to point
out
> >> that Rose hit better than 2008 Bowker/Aurilia for seven of the last
> >> eight seasons of his career.
> >
> > And you consider Bowker/Aurilia real starting 1B? :-) If you're
comparing
> > Rose to replacement level players, then I rest my case.
>
>
> The point of bringing up the example of Bowker/Aurilia (and David Greeen
> earlier) was to make the obligatory references to how poorly the Giants
> have fared at 1B over the last thirty years (save for 7 years of Will
> Clark). I certainly wasn't saying that Rose deserved to start at 1B
> because he was better than Green, Bowker, or Aurilia. As I said, Rose
> really tailed off at the end of his career, and he should not have
> written himself into the lineup. But I don't think, as you wrote, that
> Rose "was the worst first baseman in the league for 8 years." The last
> 4 years? Okay. But the last 8 years? You're just wrong on that.

See, Rose may not have been the worst starting 1B for each of those 8 years,
but I stand by what I said: "He was the worst starting 1B in the league for
8 years." That would mean cumulative 8 years. Is that so difficult to
comprehend? If you hear me say Ruth, or Williams, or Bonds, (fill in your
choice of name here), is the greatest hitter of all time, do you think I'm
talking about his entire career, or do I mean he was the greatest for *each*
individual year?

So, again, find me a 1B who *started* for at least 8 years in the league and
had worse stats than Rose. Bench players/minor league tryouts/1-year
wonders don't count.

"Ron Johnson" <johnson@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:4bda6735-f3e0-41b3-81c3-5ab5b7fa0ffd@25g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 30, 4:18 pm, Brent Peterson <brentpeterso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Awesome Lincecum wrote:
>
> > > Check the stats. He was the worst first baseman in the league for 8
years.
> >
> > Pete Rose should not have written himself into the lineup at the very
> > end of his career, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was
> > the worst first baseman in the league for *8 years*. Here are Rose's
> > OPS+ figures for his last eight years as a starting first baseman:
>
> It's pretty clear he drew the line in the wrong place. 1979 was
> a good year. 1980 to 81 he wasn't too far below average combined.
> Call it a 97 positional OPS+.
>
> Afer that though:
>
> 625 games of an OBP of .348 to go with a SLG of .315.
>
> An OPS+ of 86 at a position where you shouldn't have a
> problem finding somebody who can hit.
>
> Yeah, in any given year (except 1983 perhaps -- not interested
> in checking the race for the basement) you can find worse. Still
> a stunningly bad extended run of play.

Thank you.

In article <6kjovlF88v9eU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:

> "Gerry Myerson" <gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
> news:gerry-B7A955.09315202102008@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
> > In article <6kgdl3F7ldjnU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:
> >
> > > A simple way to test if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting
> > > 1B with OPS lower than his. You can't.

I can. I did. I do, even after you shift the goalposts, below.

> > > He was the worst *1B* of all
> > > time (not the worst player period).

Nonsense. He was awful; there have been worse.

> > > You really think a 1B with OPS in
> > > the .600s was not a bad 1B??? Do you want a .600s OPS 1B on your
> > > team, one who hit zero HRs per year?
> >
> > Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Johnny Sturm.
>
> Perhaps we need to clarify what constitutes a real starting 1B. A real
> starting 1B is someone who had a lengthy career as a starting 1B, not
> someone who was given a one year trial and then disappeared from earth.
> This Sturm guy had a 1 year career. Obviously he wasn't even close to being
> a real 1B. Rose played *8* years as a 1B, so how about using 8 years as a
> starting 1B as a guideline of a "real starting 1B"? Would any team let
> Sturm play 8 years at 1B? Obviously not. He wasn't even good enough to be
> a 25th guy on the team; gone after 1 year.
>
>
> > See also Charlie Grimm, 1920;
>
> Hey this guy had a long career at 1B, so he qualifies. Too bad, he had
> .700+ OPS for most of his career, with only 2 years below .700. Way better
> than Rose. Good choice though.

I see that you are not familiar with the concept of adjusting offensive
statistics for era and ballpark. I'd rather use OPS+ than OPS. Grimm
had a career OPS+ of 95. Rose, during the 8 years in question, had an
OPS+ of ... well, I'm not exactly sure. If you just take his 8 OPS+
figures and average them, you probably get a figure that's too low,
because it counts his bad end-career half-seasons like 1986 on a par
with his better, earlier full seasons like 1979. Maybe someone can work
out the exact number, but I'll just use the average, which, remember,
is probably lower than the exact number. And that average is 95 - same
as Grimm. I think it's safe to say that Grimm, a starting 1B by
anybody's definition, hit worse over his career than Rose did over his
last 8 seasons.

I also give you Dee Fondy and Dick Siebert, also at career OPS+ of 95;
Babe Dahlgren, 92; Preston Ward and Lou Finney, 88 (although to be fair
Finney played more games in RF than at 1B (but who wants a RF with an
OPS+ of 88?)); Jack Burns, 87; and, as the piece de resistance,
Phil Todt, 81.

That's not meant to be an exhaustive list - I'm sure there were
other "real starting 1B" I didn't stumble over in my random walk
through Neft and Cohen, who are worthy of mention here.

> > Buddy Hassett, 1940;
>
> This guy only had 4 years of 100+ games as a 1B (7 year career), so I'm not
> sure if he really qualifies as a real starting 1B either, but he's close.
> Yet he still had more .700+ OPS in his career than sub-.700, unlike Rose who
> was mostly in the .600s as a 1B.

Hassett had a career OPS+ of 92. He wasn't as good a hitter as 1979-86
Rose, regardless of what you think OPS tells you.

> But just the fact that these are the guys you're comparing to Rose tells you
> what kind of player Rose was for *8* years: really sucked! Thanks for
> proving my point.

You know, I'm not trying to prove that Pete Rose was a good ballplayer,
before or after 1979. I'm just trying to put in a little context for
anyone who likes to know the history of these things. The fact is, not
every 1B in baseball history has been Lou Gehrig. Some of them, even
some long career guys, have been pretty bad - even worse than Mr Rose.
You don't really want to have a 1B who hits as bad as he did, but it's
a fact that several teams have lived with exactly this situation, or
worse. Lighten up.

--
Gerry Myerson (gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai) (i -> u for email)

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:13:50 -0700 (PDT), Jeffrey Alsip
<jeffreyalsip@gmail.com> gave us:

>Of course I knew this. I am a fan of the Great Chicago Cubs. As this
>season demonstrated, we are ALL a cut above the normal. Please feel
>free to be honored by the fact that I took some precious seconds out
>of my day to answer your question....I do have a glorious, honor-
>filled POSTSEASON to look forward to.

>Please try to invite a member of your loser team over to your
>house....so they can watch the post-season with you on television. You
>can, occasionally, turn your head to them and say: "Hey! Remember when
>WE were great once?"

How are you enjoying the playoffs so far, Jeffy?

--
Lance

The gaffes, the tragicomic sort patented by the Cubs,
came with the fury of a god scorned. DeRosa botched a
double-play ball at second base that would’ve allowed
Carlos Zambrano to escape the second inning unscathed,
and Lee followed with an uncharacteristic mangling of
a ground ball at first base, Ramirez followed with a
fourth inning error and Theriot with his own in the ninth,
completing the trapezoid of ineptitude. Certainly no
playoff team ever had seen all four of its infielders
botch routine defensive plays in the same game.

History reserves some things for the Cubs.

"It’s like we might as well not have had gloves out
there," Lee said. "We just couldn’t catch the ball."

Jeff Passan column 10/3/08


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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On Sep 30, 2:50 am, "Bill Kawalec" <billkawa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <coachros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:747ec185-df11-4fd0-ab37-eb16746e5a78@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 8:44 pm, Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
> <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 27, 6:34 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article
> > > <df6b7f89-34bd-4ece-8e2e-d457d2c2c...@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > "rosecomm4...@aol.com" <rosecomm4...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On Sep 26, 11:31?pm, "A" <a...@att.net> wrote:
> > > > > x-no-archive: yes
>
> > > > > OUTS = AB - H + SH + SF + CS + GIDP
>
> > > > > Who in baseball made the most OUTS in a career?
> > > > > Do you know who is second, third?
>
> > > > Yo' mama, and then her mama, and then her mama.
>
> > > > It was the only time in baseball history when Midol was stored in the
> > > > locker room.
>
> > > Yeah, Pete Rose was and is an hysterical woman.
>
> > Well, Rose is a bitch, I'll give him that. But he holds that Outs
> > record and his devoted followers don't even seem to know it.
>
> > --
> > Will in New Haven- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Myself, I just wish I had the kind of baseball talent that I could
> play long enough to make more outs than anyone who had ever played.
> You dont do that by being a bad player. Pete got a hit or two along
> the way, won a game or two along the way, and won a championship or
> two along the way, as well.
>
> *************************************
> you're right. I remember people saying Reggie Jackson shouldn't be in the
> Hall of Fame because he struck out too much. You wonder what goes through
> their minds...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Don't know Billy....maybe the same thought that Reggie shouldn't have
been on the All-Star team when batting .189 or whatever it was in 1983
or whenever it was? Granted, you can't fail if you don't try, I
understand that. But arguing that he 'tried a whole bunch of times'
is valuable seems silly. I'm not saying Reggie shoouldn't be in the
Hall....one HR in Tiger's Stadium was enough for me to vote him
in....but to say he didn't let his team down a lot of times is to be
myopic.

SCreep

"Gerry Myerson" <gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
news:gerry-11FE66.10240403102008@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
> In article <6kjovlF88v9eU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:
>
> > "Gerry Myerson" <gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
> > news:gerry-B7A955.09315202102008@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
> > > In article <6kgdl3F7ldjnU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > > "Awesome Lincecum" <Lincecum@sf.giants> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A simple way to test if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting
> > > > 1B with OPS lower than his. You can't.
>
> I can. I did. I do, even after you shift the goalposts, below.

It is apparent that you don't have a clue what a real 1B is.

> > > > He was the worst *1B* of all
> > > > time (not the worst player period).
>
> Nonsense. He was awful; there have been worse.

Sure, the Giants in recent years had Lance Niekro, Ortimeier, and Bowker.
Glad to see you're counting everybody as real 1Bs, which OPS+ do. <sigh>


> I see that you are not familiar with the concept of adjusting offensive
> statistics for era and ballpark. I'd rather use OPS+ than OPS.

Sure you do, since OPS+ is counting all the rookie tryouts who would be sent
down after a year or two, all the bench players not good enough to start,
and all the platoon players masquering as starting 1Bs. Take note: in order
to count only real starting 1B, you have to weed out all the wannabes. Is
that too complicated a concept for you to grasp?

> Grimm
> had a career OPS+ of 95. Rose, during the 8 years in question, had an
> OPS+ of ... well, I'm not exactly sure.

btw, do you even realize that the OPS+ you're talking about includes
everybody, all those powerful hitting SS and 2B? :-) You *know* that,
right?

Um... Grimm's career OPS: .738. Rose: somewhere in the .600s. Amount of
HRs that Rose hit in those 8 years: 4, 1, 0, 3, 0, 0, 2, 0. 1B is the
ultimate power position, isn't it? Do you have a clue how pathetic, how
embarassing those numbers are? Freakin SS and 2B hit more HRs than that!
If you can find me another 1B who hit less HRs than Rose in 8 years, you
might have a case. (You might be able to in the very early years where 10
HRs a year might lead the league, but that was a very different game back
then.)

> If you just take his 8 OPS+
> figures and average them, you probably get a figure that's too low,
> because it counts his bad end-career half-seasons like 1986 on a par

LOL. Sure, don't count the bad years. Way to win an argument.


> I also give you Dee Fondy

Only played 6 years of 100+ games, too short a career to count as a real 1B.
And career OPS .737, still easily higher than Rose. 69 HRs in such a short
career. How many did Rose hit again? 10 in 8 years? :-)

> and Dick Siebert, also at career OPS+ of 95;

7 year career as a starter, career .711 OPS. HR by year: 6, 5, 5, 2, 1, 6,
7. This one's closer, but not close enough.


> Babe Dahlgren, 92;

Another guy with only 7 years as a starter, OPS: 712, still better than
Rose. HR by year: 9, 15, 12, 23 (wow), 5, 12, 5. If you double Rose 1B
career to 16 years, he still wouldn't match Dahlgren's one year with 23 HRs.
16 years can't match 1 year. Take some time to digest that. :-)


> > > Buddy Hassett, 1940;

OK I'm not gonna waste my time and look thru all these wannabes/platoon
players which you're trying to claim as real starting 1B, but we've already
gone thru Hassett. 7 year career, 1 of those was as an OF, and only 4 years
with 100+ games. Looks like a typical career platoon player. You must be
real desperate to count him as a *real* starting 1B, but I'm not surprised.
:-)

> You know, I'm not trying to prove that Pete Rose was a good ballplayer,
> before or after 1979.

That's the understatement of the year for the *after*. LOL.

> I'm just trying to put in a little context for
> anyone who likes to know the history of these things. The fact is, not
> every 1B in baseball history has been Lou Gehrig.

LOL. Why do all these people like to name Gehrig in the argument as if it'd
make their argument sound better? Rose wasn't even a JT Snow as a 1B, and
we all know how much of a weak hitting 1B Snow was. Even Snow blew Rose out
of the water. Snow's career OPS: .784 (gosh, almost seems like HOF level
OPS by comparison.) ;-)


> Some of them, even
> some long career guys, have been pretty bad - even worse than Mr Rose.

Yeah, 5 to 7 years guys are "long careers". I guess we have really
different definitions of what a long career is. So what would you call a
10-year starting career, iron man? LOL

> You don't really want to have a 1B who hits as bad as he did, but it's
> a fact that several teams have lived with exactly this situation, or
> worse. Lighten up.

I guess until you understand that the OPS+ number includes all the minor
league tryouts/1-year wonders/bench players/platoon players/September
callups, all of which never were *real* 1B (not to mention it includes all
the SS, 2B, CF, C), you're just wasting my time.

On Oct 6, 9:49 am, "Awesome Lincecum" <Lince...@sf.giants> wrote:
> "Gerry Myerson" <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
>
> news:gerry-11FE66.10240403102008@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
>
> > In article <6kjovlF88v9...@mid.individual.net>,
> >  "Awesome Lincecum" <Lince...@sf.giants> wrote:
>
> > > "Gerry Myerson" <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
> > >news:gerry-B7A955.09315202102008@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
> > > > In article <6kgdl3F7ldj...@mid.individual.net>,
> > > >  "Awesome Lincecum" <Lince...@sf.giants> wrote:
>
> > > > > A simple way to test if I'm right: You go try to find a few starting
> > > > > 1B with OPS lower than his. You can't.
>
> > I can. I did. I do, even after you shift the goalposts, below.
>
> It is apparent that you don't have a clue what a real 1B is.
>
> > > > > He was the worst *1B* of all
> > > > > time (not the worst player period).
>
> > Nonsense. He was awful; there have been worse.
>
> Sure, the Giants in recent years had Lance Niekro, Ortimeier, and Bowker.
> Glad to see you're counting everybody as real 1Bs, which OPS+ do.  <sigh>

I don't recall having mentioned any of those three gentlemen.
I'm comparing Rose to people who played roughly the same number
of games at 1B as he did.

> > I see that you are not familiar with the concept of adjusting offensive
> > statistics for era and ballpark. I'd rather use OPS+ than OPS.
>
> Sure you do, since OPS+ is counting all the rookie tryouts who would be sent
> down after a year or two, all the bench players not good enough to start,
> and all the platoon players masquering as starting 1Bs.  Take note: in order
> to count only real starting 1B, you have to weed out all the wannabes.  Is
> that too complicated a concept for you to grasp?

I'm looking at guys who played roughly as many games at 1B
as Rose did. If he counts as a "real starting 1B," so do they.

> > Grimm
> > had a career OPS+ of 95. Rose, during the 8 years in question, had an
> > OPS+ of ... well, I'm not exactly sure.
>
> btw, do you even realize that the OPS+ you're talking about includes
> everybody, all those powerful hitting SS and 2B?  :-)  You *know* that,
> right?

Yes, it includes those people, whether we are talking about Rose
or about Grimm. What's your point?

> Um...  Grimm's career OPS: .738.  Rose: somewhere in the .600s.  

In 1930, Grimm had an OPS of .762; 50 years later, Rose had an OPS
of .706; perhaps no one has pointed out to you that a .706 in 1980
was better than a .762 in 1930. That's why we have OPS+, to take into
account the differing offensive levels in different seasons (and also
to
adjust for park illusions). That .762 in 1930 translates to an OPS+
of
83, while .706 in 1980 is a 92 OPS+. Now 92 is pretty bad for a 1B,
but
it beats 83; Rose 1980 was better than Grimm 1930, and Rose over
the 8 years at 1B was at least as good as Grimm over his career.

> Amount of
> HRs that Rose hit in those 8 years: 4, 1, 0, 3, 0, 0, 2, 0.  1B is the
> ultimate power position, isn't it?  Do you have a clue how pathetic, how
> embarassing those numbers are?  Freakin SS and 2B hit more HRs than that!
> If you can find me another 1B who hit less HRs than Rose in 8 years, you
> might have a case.  

I'd rather go with something that takes into account everything the
guy
does at the plate, like OPS+, than put all my eggs in the HR basket.
Wouldn't you?

> > If you just take his 8 OPS+
> > figures and average them, you probably get a figure that's too low,
> > because it counts his bad end-career half-seasons like 1986 on a par
>
> LOL.  Sure, don't count the bad years.  Way to win an argument.

I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm trying to educate you on
baseball
history. Maybe if you'd stop trying to win an argument, and start
trying
to understand stuff, you'd learn something.

> > I also give you Dee Fondy
>
> Only played 6 years of 100+ games, too short a career to count as a real 1B.

You know, I must have missed that passage in the Bible where it says
that 8 years exactly is the cutoff - was that in Leviticus? What if we
make
the cutoff 9 years? Then Rose isn't a real 1B, and your whole show
collapses. Fondy played 874 games at 1B, Rose played 939, and if
that's
your basis for including one and not the other, you're on thin ice.

> And career OPS .737, still easily higher than Rose.  69 HRs in such a short
> career.  How many did Rose hit again?  10 in 8 years?  :-)

Refuted, earlier.

> > and Dick Siebert, also at career OPS+ of 95;
>
> 7 year career as a starter, career .711 OPS.  HR by year: 6, 5, 5, 2, 1, 6,
> 7.  This one's closer, but not close enough.

Siebert played *more* games at 1B than Rose, you know.

> > Babe Dahlgren, 92;
>
> Another guy with only 7 years as a starter, OPS: 712, still better than
> Rose.  HR by year: 9, 15, 12, 23 (wow), 5, 12, 5.  If you double Rose1B
> career to 16 years, he still wouldn't match Dahlgren's one year with 23 HRs.
> 16 years can't match 1 year.  Take some time to digest that.  :-)

Dahlgren played 1030 games at 1B, to 939 for Rose. He had a .729 OPS
in 1935 - but that was only an 83 OPS+, because there was much more
offense in the 1935 AL than in the 1979-86 NL. He had more HR than
Rose - what of it? Look at the whole package on offense, not one
piece
of it. Dahlgren was a better home run hitter than Rose, but worse
overall.

> > > > Buddy Hassett, 1940;
>
> OK I'm not gonna waste my time and look thru all these wannabes/platoon
> players which you're trying to claim as real starting 1B, but we've already
> gone thru Hassett.  7 year career, 1 of those was as an OF, and only 4 years
> with 100+ games.  Looks like a typical career platoon player.  You must be
> real desperate to count him as a *real* starting 1B, but I'm not surprised.

747 games at 1B. Somebody must have thought he was a real
starting 1B.

> > You know, I'm not trying to prove that Pete Rose was a good ballplayer,
> > before or after 1979.
> > I'm just trying to put in a little context for
> > anyone who likes to know the history of these things. The fact is, not
> > every 1B in baseball history has been Lou Gehrig.
> > Some of them, even
> > some long career guys, have been pretty bad - even worse than Mr Rose.
>
> Yeah, 5 to 7 years guys are "long careers".  I guess we have really
> different definitions of what a long career is.  So what would you calla
> 10-year starting career, iron man?  LOL

For the purposes of this discussion, "long career" means "played
about
as many games at 1B as Rose did." It means that because I'm trying to
show you that Rose was not the worst-hitting 1B ever, so all I have to
do
is find guys who played about as many games at 1B as Rose did, and
note that they hit worse than Rose did. And I've done that, in
spades.

> > You don't really want to have a 1B who hits as bad as he did, but it's
> > a fact that several teams have lived with exactly this situation, or
> > worse. Lighten up.
>
> I guess until you understand that the OPS+ number includes all the minor
> league tryouts/1-year wonders/bench players/platoon players/September
> callups, all of which never were *real* 1B (not to mention it includes all
> the SS, 2B, CF, C), you're just wasting my time.

I don't understand this objection at all. If you're saying that OPS+
makes
Rose look better than he really was because it includes all those
other
crappy hitters, well, it does the same for Grimm and Fondy and
Siebert
and Dahlgren and Hassett and the rest. If you don't like OPS, why
don't
you suggest another way to compare players from different eras? or
try
to convince me that an OPS of, say, .750 means the same thing,
whether teams are averaging 12 runs a game or 8?

Here are a few more guys who played about as many games at 1B as
Rose did, and didn't hit any better than he did:

Walter Holke
Jim Spencer
Tom McCraw
Ed Kranepool
Travis Lee
Eddie Waitkus
Vic Power

Rose was lousy. Many have been just as bad, or worse, for just as
many
games, or more.
--
GM