The magic number is now zero. The D-backs looked like cast-off skins
of their former selves. So, the Dodgers return to the post-season for
the first time since Lima Time in 2004. We're buoyed by yet another
unpredictable personality and the challenge, now, of topping our ONE
post-season victory in 20 years.

Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad? Well, it means another
year of Ned. Hopefully he has gained some wisdom from the decisions
he's made over the years. Manny certainly brought in more money than
he has cost the Dodgers and possibly more than LaRoche would be
capable of. So, I still stubbornly cling to the belief that renting
him for the last two months was worth the cost. Taking him beyond
this season, not so much.

But what was gained overall this season? It wasn't three years ago we
last visited the "weakness of the west" dialogue and yet, after a
strong 2007, we returned.

The model franchise for the west, the Diamondbacks, were, in the end,
vanquished. At best, they sweep Colorado and finish a game above .
500. Where did they go so wrong? Certainly not in Brandon Webb, half
the reason the Cy Young HAS to go west, young man. Young? Johnson?
They were, at one point, imposing, but by the end of the year,
disappointing. The fact is, the team was subdued by a beleaguered
franchise with as many reasons not to win it, but with the acquisition
of one superstar player. What good is developing players if adding a
Manny Ramirez at the trade deadline moves you from treading water to
good enough to win a division? All else gave Arizona an advantage.

The Rockies, last year the National League representative in the World
Series. This year they were a middling team at best, never
threatening in any race. Career years in 2007 reverted to the laws of
averages. The Rockies are not, nor will they soon be, champions for
the senior circuit.

The Giants proved that there is life after Barry. Cain and Lincecum
are the real deal, the former snakebit by no support, the latter the
sentimental if not statistical favorite for the hardware. Not enough
runs from a team that had Bengie Molina as their clean-up hitter
sealed their fate, but they're not dead yet. Age may cost them
Visquel and Aurilia, but maybe Randy Winn can get something more out
of his mid-30's body like he did this year. Ray Durham? Maybe the
same thing. Lots of young elements (Sandoval, Velez) can pick up the
departures.

San Diego, what can be said in defense of the Padres? They've fallen
too far off the table to pin on the departure of Mike Cameron and a
couple injuries. Both the D-backs and Dodgers can match the Pads,
injury for injury. Heck, Nomar has been injured enough for any
franchise. Is it fair to pin it on Bud Black? That will likely
happen, but when Adrian Gonzales is the only bright spot, something is
direly wrong.

So, three games remain for the four aforementioned. Then the Dodgers
catch a flight to Chicago/Philadelphia. The Cubs, despite their
record, are hardly the juggernauts the Cards and Braves of your had
been. To win two games, even a series, is not out of the question.
Dare we call the season a success if that happens? At what point are
any of us satisfied with the happenings of 2008? Shall we look to the
dugout or bullpen and prepare our farewells to select individuals?
Enjoy one more Man-Ram at bat? Register Maddux's final strikeout in
that part of our head that still vividly recalls Cey's last waddle to
first base? Cheer or jeer Kent as the smug grin crosses his face?
Salute Nomar while he adjusts the glove, lid, glove, sleeve,
wristband, glove, tap the head of the bat, tug on the glove?

Or can all that still wait? Is it time to celebrate a milestone that
came three hours before Dodger Stadium gates opened for the night?
I'm glad we're here, but it's much easier to enjoy the moment when it
happens on the field.

"Don Tootin'" <capngroovy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9bae2179-6c93-4d45-bd56-f0e4e20856e3@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> The magic number is now zero. The D-backs looked like cast-off skins
> of their former selves. So, the Dodgers return to the post-season for
> the first time since Lima Time in 2004. We're buoyed by yet another
> unpredictable personality and the challenge, now, of topping our ONE
> post-season victory in 20 years.
>
> Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad? Well, it means another
> year of Ned. Hopefully he has gained some wisdom from the decisions
> he's made over the years. Manny certainly brought in more money than
> he has cost the Dodgers and possibly more than LaRoche would be
> capable of. So, I still stubbornly cling to the belief that renting
> him for the last two months was worth the cost. Taking him beyond
> this season, not so much.
>
> But what was gained overall this season? It wasn't three years ago we
> last visited the "weakness of the west" dialogue and yet, after a
> strong 2007, we returned.
>
> The model franchise for the west, the Diamondbacks, were, in the end,
> vanquished. At best, they sweep Colorado and finish a game above .
> 500. Where did they go so wrong? Certainly not in Brandon Webb, half
> the reason the Cy Young HAS to go west, young man. Young? Johnson?
> They were, at one point, imposing, but by the end of the year,
> disappointing. The fact is, the team was subdued by a beleaguered
> franchise with as many reasons not to win it, but with the acquisition
> of one superstar player. What good is developing players if adding a
> Manny Ramirez at the trade deadline moves you from treading water to
> good enough to win a division? All else gave Arizona an advantage.
>
> The Rockies, last year the National League representative in the World
> Series. This year they were a middling team at best, never
> threatening in any race. Career years in 2007 reverted to the laws of
> averages. The Rockies are not, nor will they soon be, champions for
> the senior circuit.
>
> The Giants proved that there is life after Barry. Cain and Lincecum
> are the real deal, the former snakebit by no support, the latter the
> sentimental if not statistical favorite for the hardware. Not enough
> runs from a team that had Bengie Molina as their clean-up hitter
> sealed their fate, but they're not dead yet. Age may cost them
> Visquel and Aurilia, but maybe Randy Winn can get something more out
> of his mid-30's body like he did this year. Ray Durham? Maybe the
> same thing. Lots of young elements (Sandoval, Velez) can pick up the
> departures.
>
> San Diego, what can be said in defense of the Padres? They've fallen
> too far off the table to pin on the departure of Mike Cameron and a
> couple injuries. Both the D-backs and Dodgers can match the Pads,
> injury for injury. Heck, Nomar has been injured enough for any
> franchise. Is it fair to pin it on Bud Black? That will likely
> happen, but when Adrian Gonzales is the only bright spot, something is
> direly wrong.
>
> So, three games remain for the four aforementioned. Then the Dodgers
> catch a flight to Chicago/Philadelphia. The Cubs, despite their
> record, are hardly the juggernauts the Cards and Braves of your had
> been. To win two games, even a series, is not out of the question.
> Dare we call the season a success if that happens? At what point are
> any of us satisfied with the happenings of 2008? Shall we look to the
> dugout or bullpen and prepare our farewells to select individuals?
> Enjoy one more Man-Ram at bat? Register Maddux's final strikeout in
> that part of our head that still vividly recalls Cey's last waddle to
> first base? Cheer or jeer Kent as the smug grin crosses his face?
> Salute Nomar while he adjusts the glove, lid, glove, sleeve,
> wristband, glove, tap the head of the bat, tug on the glove?
>
> Or can all that still wait? Is it time to celebrate a milestone that
> came three hours before Dodger Stadium gates opened for the night?
> I'm glad we're here, but it's much easier to enjoy the moment when it
> happens on the field.

Where Arizona went wrong was trading their closer Valverde in the off
season.they blew a bunch of games because of their crappy relief
pitching.they had other problems too but I think not having Valverde was the
biggest.

On Sep 25, 3:22 pm, "CM" <IWANTTOBESOMEB...@SOMEWHERE.COM> wrote:
> "Don Tootin'" <capngro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9bae2179-6c93-4d45-bd56-f0e4e20856e3@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > The magic number is now zero.  The D-backs looked like cast-off skins
> > of their former selves.  So, the Dodgers return to the post-season for
> > the first time since Lima Time in 2004.  We're buoyed by yet another
> > unpredictable personality and the challenge, now, of topping our ONE
> > post-season victory in 20 years.
>
> > Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad?  Well, it means another
> > year of Ned.  Hopefully he has gained some wisdom from the decisions
> > he's made over the years.  Manny certainly brought in more money than
> > he has cost the Dodgers and possibly more than LaRoche would be
> > capable of.  So, I still stubbornly cling to the belief that renting
> > him for the last two months was worth the cost.  Taking him beyond
> > this season, not so much.
>
> > But what was gained overall this season?  It wasn't three years ago we
> > last visited the "weakness of the west" dialogue and yet, after a
> > strong 2007, we returned.
>
> > The model franchise for the west, the Diamondbacks, were, in the end,
> > vanquished.  At best, they sweep Colorado and finish a game above .
> > 500.  Where did they go so wrong?  Certainly not in Brandon Webb, half
> > the reason the Cy Young HAS to go west, young man.  Young?  Johnson?
> > They were, at one point, imposing, but by the end of the year,
> > disappointing.  The fact is, the team was subdued by a beleaguered
> > franchise with as many reasons not to win it, but with the acquisition
> > of one superstar player.  What good is developing players if adding a
> > Manny Ramirez at the trade deadline moves you from treading water to
> > good enough to win a division?  All else gave Arizona an advantage.
>
> > The Rockies, last year the National League representative in the World
> > Series.  This year they were a middling team at best, never
> > threatening in any race.  Career years in 2007 reverted to the laws of
> > averages.  The Rockies are not, nor will they soon be, champions for
> > the senior circuit.
>
> > The Giants proved that there is life after Barry.  Cain and Lincecum
> > are the real deal, the former snakebit by no support, the latter the
> > sentimental if not statistical favorite for the hardware.  Not enough
> > runs from a team that had Bengie Molina as their clean-up hitter
> > sealed their fate, but they're not dead yet.  Age may cost them
> > Visquel and Aurilia, but maybe Randy Winn can get something more out
> > of his mid-30's body like he did this year.  Ray Durham?  Maybe the
> > same thing.  Lots of young elements (Sandoval, Velez) can pick up the
> > departures.
>
> > San Diego, what can be said in defense of the Padres?  They've fallen
> > too far off the table to pin on the departure of Mike Cameron and a
> > couple injuries.  Both the D-backs and Dodgers can match the Pads,
> > injury for injury.  Heck, Nomar has been injured enough for any
> > franchise.  Is it fair to pin it on Bud Black?  That will likely
> > happen, but when Adrian Gonzales is the only bright spot, something is
> > direly wrong.
>
> > So, three games remain for the four aforementioned.  Then the Dodgers
> > catch a flight to Chicago/Philadelphia.  The Cubs, despite their
> > record, are hardly the juggernauts the Cards and Braves of your had
> > been.  To win two games, even a series, is not out of the question.
> > Dare we call the season a success if that happens?  At what point are
> > any of us satisfied with the happenings of 2008?  Shall we look to the
> > dugout or bullpen and prepare our farewells to select individuals?
> > Enjoy one more Man-Ram at bat?  Register Maddux's final strikeout in
> > that part of our head that still vividly recalls Cey's last waddle to
> > first base?  Cheer or jeer Kent as the smug grin crosses his face?
> > Salute Nomar while he adjusts the glove, lid, glove, sleeve,
> > wristband, glove, tap the head of the bat, tug on the glove?
>
> > Or can all that still wait?  Is it time to celebrate a milestone that
> > came three hours before Dodger Stadium gates opened for the night?
> > I'm glad we're here, but it's much easier to enjoy the moment when it
> > happens on the field.
>
> Where Arizona went wrong was trading their closer Valverde in the off
> season.they blew a bunch of games because of their crappy relief
> pitching.they had other problems too but I think not having Valverde was the
> biggest.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Fair, but worth that great a drop-off? I wonder. Especially with the
way closers are oft-devalued, especially in these circles.

>
>Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad? Well, it means another
>year of Ned. Taking him beyond this season, not so much.

Fer chrissakes', WHAT COST? The BoSox paid his salary, we gave up
LaRoche and 2 no-names. I think it's safe to say he took us to the
playoffs,almost for free, and he's HAPPY here, so far. Whatever the
cost of his option for next year, PAY IT!

"Zz Yzx" <zzyzx__@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ucod49c7avemmiv6cdfbhn7839ngrrl4k@4ax.com...
>
>>
>>Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad? Well, it means another
>>year of Ned. Taking him beyond this season, not so much.
>
> Fer chrissakes', WHAT COST? The BoSox paid his salary, we gave up
> LaRoche and 2 no-names. I think it's safe to say he took us to the
> playoffs,almost for free, and he's HAPPY here, so far. Whatever the
> cost of his option for next year, PAY IT!

The cost is a reasonable competent 3rd baseman. Which is exactly where on
the horizon? I am not a great LaRoche fan but...

What many did, barring the playoffs, was made a ton of money for the
Dodgers. The first weekend he was here brought in an extra 3 mil at the
gate. One weekend. Wow. Some of what he brought in has to go to players for
next year. So we got the ability to replace whatever we lost. The problem is
with so many FA this year the money will be gone faster than your neighbor
who was dumb enough to buy an ARM when mortgage rates were the lowest in
history.

On Sep 25, 6:01 pm, Zz Yzx <zzyz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad?  Well, it means another
> >year of Ned.  Taking him beyond this season, not so much.
>
> Fer chrissakes', WHAT COST?  The  BoSox paid his salary, we gave up
> LaRoche and 2 no-names.  I think it's safe to say he took us to the
> playoffs,almost for free,  and he's HAPPY here, so far.  Whatever the
> cost of his option for next year, PAY IT!

Had you seen the exchanges between Mike and I immediately after the
trade and ten games after, you'd know what those costs are. He and I
place different value on what was gained and what was lost. If I read
Mike correctly, the greatest cost is the continued existence of
Colletti and, thereby, the risk of losing two capable future GMs.
Some costs don't show up on the ledger.

Still, I'd rather be watching McCourt getting doused by a guy in a
scuba mask and another in a bathrobe, not to mention "the Bison," than
hoping, just hoping, that we can field enough guys next year.

Zz Yzx wrote:
>>Worth the cost to have Manny on the squad? Well, it means another
>>year of Ned. Taking him beyond this season, not so much.
>
>
> Fer chrissakes', WHAT COST? The BoSox paid his salary, we gave up
> LaRoche and 2 no-names. I think it's safe to say he took us to the
> playoffs,almost for free, and he's HAPPY here, so far. Whatever the
> cost of his option for next year, PAY IT!


Two problems:

1.) The option year in Manny's contract was torn up as part of the
trade, so what you're arguing for is signing a 36 year old player to a
4 year contract at $20 to $25 million a year (and with Scott Boras as
his agent, you can bet on the higher figure). It is not inconceivable
that the Dodgers will have to replace Lowe, Penny, and Maddux in the
rotation as well as Furcal among the regulars while being stuck with
the bad contracts already dished out to Jones and Pierre (at least
Pierre does what he can to earn his $$). The Dodgers may not be able
to both afford Manny AND field a competitive team next season.

2.) Then there's the "and he's HAPPY here, so far." statement. The ONLY
thing I can think of that would be worse than the Andruw Jones and Jason
Schmidt signings would be paying $25 million a year to a guy who doesn't
try when things aren't the way he wants them. And with Manny, it's not
speculation - he's already shown a willingness to quit on his teammates
in Boston this year. This isn't a risk a smart team should take.

Rich
(enjoying the Dodgers playoff run for now)

So Manny "quit" on his BoSox teammates this year? He has been in
baseball a long time and nobody has said anything. No Dodger this year
was accused of quitting and Manny's numbers in Boston were far greater.

On Sep 26, 5:47 am, KYLERSGRAN...@webtv.net (Brad Machado) wrote:
> So Manny "quit" on his BoSox teammates this year? He has been in
> baseball a long time and nobody has said anything. No Dodger this year
> was accused of quitting and Manny's numbers in Boston were far greater.

If you were paying any attention to Boston this year, the idea of
quitting HAS been brought up quite a bit. It's conceivable that he
didn't quit in Cleveland because he hadn't gained the clout he has
since earned, but there is no doubt his performance from the moment he
announced he was unhappy was far from his norm.

Even the most optimistic of us coming out of the trade railed against
Manny coming back for another year or so. Frankly, even if he was
inclined to go to the Mets next year, there is only one franchise in
baseball that would be able to keep him happy. Even then, the way the
relationship between Yankee fan and A-rod has soured over the years,
it could sour should he hit the Big Apple.

Manny has done well to bring something magical to this team, this
year. Hopefully the Kemp/Loney/Ethier/Martin camp absorbed something
from him and realize that they can be winners, that last night's taste
leaves them wanting for more. And I wish Manny luck wherever he goes,
but he has a short shelf life now.