View Full Version : Which PITCHERS stay, which go?


A
09-24-2008, 12:10 PM
x-no-archive: yes

With the continual problem with Starters unable to go more than 6 IP
(average), who stays and who goes? Not to mention Carpenter's new problem,
which makes it more important the better ones STAY.

My opinions.

STARTERS

Staying
----------

Kyle LOHSE (15-6 3.78) - despite many complaints in this ng on trading him
(for someone else they think will do even better), you don't throw away a
15-game winner when most others on the team aren't doing their share. Leads
all starters with exactly 200 IP. Also performed well with fewer runs
scored. Team scores only 4.2 R/G for him, lowest for any regular Starter.
(3.77 ERC, what should have been his ERA with his raw statistics). 1.30
WHIP .272 O-AVG .418 O-SLG.
Probably one more start (Sunday) to get to 16 wins to round-out his best
year in baseball.
Pay him what he is worth--reasonably for the best team Starter (and for
durability) in '08.
A bird in the hand is better than two somewhere out in the free-agent
bushes.

Todd WELLEMEYER (12-9 3.69) - Keep him! 185.1 IP in 31 GS with one more
by Sept. 28. A developing pitcher, has good stuff; leads pitchers with 130
K's and tied with Wainwright at .243 O-AVG. Team also seems to score more
Runs on the average for him (4.7) than with other starters, with exception
of Wainwright, and in Carpenter's 3 starts. 3.66 ERC. 1.24 WHIP .415
O-SLG.

Adam WAINWRIGHT (10-3 3.21) - no discussion necessary. Leads starters in:
1.14 WHIP, .393 O-SLG, (tied with Wellemeyer at .243 O-AVG), 3.21 ERA,
giving up only 115 Hits, 29 W and 12 HR in 126 IP (19 GS). A team-leading
5.8 R/G with him starting. Missed 2+ months with strange finger injury,
costing the Birds an almost-certain chance of post-season play. Not blaming
him, just stating what would have happened if he had been able to pitch the
whole year, injury-free.
His ERC is a terrific 2.98.

Braden LOOPER (12-14 4.13) - difficult to measure. Some games were very
good; on others he got blown away early or had one bad inning that ruined a
chance for a win. Team scores only 4.3 R/G for him; lower than the others
exc. Lohse at 4.2. One of only two CGs all year by the Starters; Wainwright
had the other. May be better for the team returning to the bullpen, but may
still be necessary as a starter; esp. if Carpenter can't start the season
(April 6, '09 1st game). ERC shows he got lucky in many games, ERA should
have been 4.34. 32 GS and 192 IP (with one more start) give him plus's for
durability. Would be great to show he has the potential to start
consistently next year if he can go 8 IP in his last start in '08 for 200
IP, and get to 13 wins.
..278 O-AVG .438 O-SLG. 1.32 WHIP.


Chris CARPENTER (0-1 1.88 as Starter) - potential ace (or co-ace with
Wainwright), needs to get healthy to be at his Cy Young-possible best as he
was in '05, but even a 90% Carpenter is still better than most other
pitchers at 100%. If you count his 3 starts, he leads the team with an
outstanding .314 O-SLG. 1.26 WHIP facing only 58 batters in 14.1 IP. 5.0
R/G for him; second to Wainwright.



Going
--------

Joel PINEIRO (6-7 5.19) - excellent...for trade bait! Too inconsistent,
despite flashes of good parts in some of his 24 GS and 138.2 IP. "Leads"
starters with an awful .306 O-AVG and a whopping .514 O-SLG. His 5.19 ERA
was bad enough; got lucky in his games, though. His ERC was actually
*worse* at 5.25!


Possible Stay (bullpen, long-relief?)
--------------------------------------------------

Brad THOMPSON (2-2 4.81) - Started 5 games, 24.1 IP with 104 BF. 1.44 WHIP,
..309 O-AVG .457 O-SLG. Possible trade bait with Pineiro in a two-for-one
deal for a *real* starter.

McClellan, Perez, and Motte in '08 give Birds more leeway in developing a
strong bullpen in '09, making Thompson expendable; esp. if they can get a
good/great LH Reliever such as Brian Fuentes of the Rockies, who seems to be
high on Mozeliak's list to 'get' for '09.

____


RELIEVERS


Staying
----------

Russ SPRINGER - if he decides to go another year (not-an-"old" 40), a cinch
for getting re-signed by Birds.

Ryan FRANKLIN - probably stays, though not in Closer role, despite decent
job for most of season, although one bad stretch in mid-season, probably
from massive over-work. Long or mid-relief more likely in '09 if he stays.
Led team with 16 SVs (5 games remaining to get to 20).

Jason ISRINGHAUSEN - I'm betting the team will re-sign him at a lower base
but with incentives. Not that I necessarily want him to stay, just my hunch
the team will do precisely that. They want to see him get to 300 career
Saves in a Cardinals' uniform as he now is the team's all-time Saves leader;
only needs 7 more, then he will be used in short-term relief situations
while Motte, Perez, and McClellan battle for the Closer role.

Kyle McCLELLAN,
Jason MOTTSE, and
Chris PEREZ All three in a battle for the prime Closer
role. The future of the bullpen looks better with these 3 than how it
looked in mid-2008, at least on the Right side!


Going for sure
--------------------

Randy FLORES (L) - not good enough in '09 to warrant a stay, contract over
and free agency looms. Could be a good fit for another team.

Ron VILLONE - ditto for him as for Flores.

Eric Margheim
09-24-2008, 06:48 PM
>
> Kyle LOHSE (15-6 3.78) - despite many complaints in this ng on trading
> him (for someone else they think will do even better), you don't throw
> away a 15-game winner when most others on the team aren't doing their
> share. Leads all starters with exactly 200 IP. Also performed well with
> fewer runs scored. Team scores only 4.2 R/G for him, lowest for any
> regular Starter. (3.77 ERC, what should have been his ERA with his raw
> statistics). 1.30 WHIP .272 O-AVG .418 O-SLG.
> Probably one more start (Sunday) to get to 16 wins to round-out his best
> year in baseball.
> Pay him what he is worth--reasonably for the best team Starter (and for
> durability) in '08.
> A bird in the hand is better than two somewhere out in the free-agent
> bushes.

Here's the deal with Lohse. Bringing him back isn't a bad idea if it's for
a reasonable cost. The reason I advocated trading him as being a good idea
back a few months ago was because he would have likely brought a return
greater than his true value and is going to be too expensive to re-sign.
Despite being a career average pitcher he will likely demand top dollar this
offseason. If the Cardinals want to keep him they will have to pay quite a
bit more than he's worth. At least that's what I see happening.

Unfortunately for teams needing starting pitching, I'm not sure there is a
lot of good options this offseason. Sabathia is the big catch. After him,
what else is there? I know there are a few good options but unless you get
one of the top 3 or 4 for top dollar, what are the options?

LidsvilleNine
09-24-2008, 11:16 PM
On Sep 24, 12:48 pm, "Eric Margheim"
<nospam***emargh...@centurytel.net> wrote:
> > Kyle LOHSE (15-6 3.78) - despite many complaints in this ng on trading
> > him (for someone else they think will do even better), you don't throw
> > away a 15-game winner when most others on the team aren't doing their
> > share. Leads all starters with exactly 200 IP. Also performed well with
> > fewer runs scored. Team scores only 4.2 R/G for him, lowest for any
> > regular Starter. (3.77 ERC, what should have been his ERA with his raw
> > statistics). 1.30 WHIP .272 O-AVG .418 O-SLG.
> > Probably one more start (Sunday) to get to 16 wins to round-out his best
> > year in baseball.
> > Pay him what he is worth--reasonably for the best team Starter (and for
> > durability) in '08.
> > A bird in the hand is better than two somewhere out in the free-agent
> > bushes.
>
> Here's the deal with Lohse. Bringing him back isn't a bad idea if it's for
> a reasonable cost. The reason I advocated trading him as being a good idea
> back a few months ago was because he would have likely brought a return
> greater than his true value and is going to be too expensive to re-sign.
> Despite being a career average pitcher he will likely demand top dollar this
> offseason. If the Cardinals want to keep him they will have to pay quite a
> bit more than he's worth. At least that's what I see happening.
>
> Unfortunately for teams needing starting pitching, I'm not sure there is a
> lot of good options this offseason. Sabathia is the big catch. After him,
> what else is there? I know there are a few good options but unless you get
> one of the top 3 or 4 for top dollar, what are the options?

They should have dumped Lohse once it became obvious that the
postseason was likely out of range. Always get rid of players whose
names are spelled in Dyslexic Englihs. (sic)

A
09-25-2008, 02:19 AM
x-no-archive: yes

"LidsvilleNine" <LidsvilleNine@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:1bf69cc6-a7ac-459d-8d17-c35546362cfd@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 24, 12:48 pm, "Eric Margheim"
> <nospam***emargh...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>> > Kyle LOHSE (15-6 3.78) - despite many complaints in this ng on
>> > trading
>> > him (for someone else they think will do even better), you don't throw
>> > away a 15-game winner when most others on the team aren't doing their
>> > share. Leads all starters with exactly 200 IP. Also performed well
>> > with
>> > fewer runs scored. Team scores only 4.2 R/G for him, lowest for any
>> > regular Starter. (3.77 ERC, what should have been his ERA with his raw
>> > statistics). 1.30 WHIP .272 O-AVG .418 O-SLG.
>> > Probably one more start (Sunday) to get to 16 wins to round-out his
>> > best
>> > year in baseball.
>> > Pay him what he is worth--reasonably for the best team Starter (and for
>> > durability) in '08.
>> > A bird in the hand is better than two somewhere out in the free-agent
>> > bushes.
>>
>> Here's the deal with Lohse. Bringing him back isn't a bad idea if it's
>> for
>> a reasonable cost. The reason I advocated trading him as being a good
>> idea
>> back a few months ago was because he would have likely brought a return
>> greater than his true value and is going to be too expensive to re-sign.
>> Despite being a career average pitcher he will likely demand top dollar
>> this
>> offseason. If the Cardinals want to keep him they will have to pay
>> quite a
>> bit more than he's worth. At least that's what I see happening.
>>
>> Unfortunately for teams needing starting pitching, I'm not sure there is
>> a
>> lot of good options this offseason. Sabathia is the big catch. After
>> him,
>> what else is there? I know there are a few good options but unless you
>> get
>> one of the top 3 or 4 for top dollar, what are the options?
>
> They should have dumped Lohse once it became obvious that the
> postseason was likely out of range.

Which was all of 10 days ago.

Always get rid of players whose
> names are spelled in Dyslexic Englihs. (sic)

(sic).

Eric Margheim
09-25-2008, 05:41 PM
"A" <aaaz@att.net> wrote in message
news:-dydnbZurfezekfVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@earthlink.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "LidsvilleNine" <LidsvilleNine@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1bf69cc6-a7ac-459d-8d17-c35546362cfd@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 24, 12:48 pm, "Eric Margheim"
>> <nospam***emargh...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>> > Kyle LOHSE (15-6 3.78) - despite many complaints in this ng on
>>> > trading
>>> > him (for someone else they think will do even better), you don't throw
>>> > away a 15-game winner when most others on the team aren't doing their
>>> > share. Leads all starters with exactly 200 IP. Also performed well
>>> > with
>>> > fewer runs scored. Team scores only 4.2 R/G for him, lowest for any
>>> > regular Starter. (3.77 ERC, what should have been his ERA with his raw
>>> > statistics). 1.30 WHIP .272 O-AVG .418 O-SLG.
>>> > Probably one more start (Sunday) to get to 16 wins to round-out his
>>> > best
>>> > year in baseball.
>>> > Pay him what he is worth--reasonably for the best team Starter (and
>>> > for
>>> > durability) in '08.
>>> > A bird in the hand is better than two somewhere out in the free-agent
>>> > bushes.
>>>
>>> Here's the deal with Lohse. Bringing him back isn't a bad idea if it's
>>> for
>>> a reasonable cost. The reason I advocated trading him as being a good
>>> idea
>>> back a few months ago was because he would have likely brought a return
>>> greater than his true value and is going to be too expensive to re-sign.
>>> Despite being a career average pitcher he will likely demand top dollar
>>> this
>>> offseason. If the Cardinals want to keep him they will have to pay
>>> quite a
>>> bit more than he's worth. At least that's what I see happening.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately for teams needing starting pitching, I'm not sure there is
>>> a
>>> lot of good options this offseason. Sabathia is the big catch. After
>>> him,
>>> what else is there? I know there are a few good options but unless you
>>> get
>>> one of the top 3 or 4 for top dollar, what are the options?
>>
>> They should have dumped Lohse once it became obvious that the
>> postseason was likely out of range.
>
> Which was all of 10 days ago.
>

Mathematically perhaps but the Cardinals really didn't have much of a chance
and that was obvious 2 months ago. Lance and other Cardinal fans
recognized this. I have several Cardinal fan friends who agreed with me
that trading Lohse back in July would have been a good move.

A
09-25-2008, 07:31 PM
x-no-archive: yes

"Eric Margheim" <nospam***emargheim@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:RYKdnfQ1qqnHIkbVnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@centurytel.net...
>
> "A" <aaaz@att.net> wrote in message
> news:-dydnbZurfezekfVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@earthlink.com...
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> "LidsvilleNine" <LidsvilleNine@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1bf69cc6-a7ac-459d-8d17-c35546362cfd@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Sep 24, 12:48 pm, "Eric Margheim"
>>> <nospam***emargh...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>>> > Kyle LOHSE (15-6 3.78) - despite many complaints in this ng on
>>>> > trading
>>>> > him (for someone else they think will do even better), you don't
>>>> > throw
>>>> > away a 15-game winner when most others on the team aren't doing their
>>>> > share. Leads all starters with exactly 200 IP. Also performed well
>>>> > with
>>>> > fewer runs scored. Team scores only 4.2 R/G for him, lowest for any
>>>> > regular Starter. (3.77 ERC, what should have been his ERA with his
>>>> > raw
>>>> > statistics). 1.30 WHIP .272 O-AVG .418 O-SLG.
>>>> > Probably one more start (Sunday) to get to 16 wins to round-out his
>>>> > best
>>>> > year in baseball.
>>>> > Pay him what he is worth--reasonably for the best team Starter (and
>>>> > for
>>>> > durability) in '08.
>>>> > A bird in the hand is better than two somewhere out in the free-agent
>>>> > bushes.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the deal with Lohse. Bringing him back isn't a bad idea if
>>>> it's for
>>>> a reasonable cost. The reason I advocated trading him as being a good
>>>> idea
>>>> back a few months ago was because he would have likely brought a return
>>>> greater than his true value and is going to be too expensive to
>>>> re-sign.
>>>> Despite being a career average pitcher he will likely demand top dollar
>>>> this
>>>> offseason. If the Cardinals want to keep him they will have to pay
>>>> quite a
>>>> bit more than he's worth. At least that's what I see happening.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately for teams needing starting pitching, I'm not sure there
>>>> is a
>>>> lot of good options this offseason. Sabathia is the big catch. After
>>>> him,
>>>> what else is there? I know there are a few good options but unless
>>>> you get
>>>> one of the top 3 or 4 for top dollar, what are the options?
>>>
>>> They should have dumped Lohse once it became obvious that the
>>> postseason was likely out of range.
>>
>> Which was all of 10 days ago.
>>
>
> Mathematically perhaps but the Cardinals really didn't have much of a
> chance and that was obvious 2 months ago.

Not true! They were in the thick of it until that awful 7-game
losing streak doomed them.

> Lance and other Cardinal fans recognized this. I have several Cardinal
> fan friends who agreed with me that trading Lohse back in July would have
> been a good move.

Trade him for *whom*, and could you guarantee the new pitcher
would have performed any better than Lohse has? He could have won 20 games
if it wasn't for the stinking bullpen that blew many games he left with the
team leading.

Lance Freezeland
09-25-2008, 07:54 PM
On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:41:59 -0500, "Eric Margheim"
<nospam***emargheim@centurytel.net> gave us:

>Mathematically perhaps but the Cardinals really didn't have much of a chance
>and that was obvious 2 months ago. Lance and other Cardinal fans
>recognized this. I have several Cardinal fan friends who agreed with me
>that trading Lohse back in July would have been a good move.

Trading Lohse back in late July was absolutely the right move.
Nitwits like Roy can't see that, though.

He's had his best season in the majors, to be sure, but the reality is
that in the second half, he's been very ordinary. His first half ERA
was 3.39, and in the second half, it's been 4.35. If you trade him in
late July, you might get some minor leaguer that can help you next
year or beyond. By holding him, you're guaranteeing that he'll walk
via free agency. And he and his agent, Scott Boras, will be demanding
4 years and $45 million.

Lohse is not worth half that. And anybody who looked at this team on
July 31 and really thought that they could stay with Chicago and/or
Milwaukee was fooling themselves.

--
Lance

"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
-- Connie Mack


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