http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-to-introduce-rowing-equipment-18601

seems that my idea of using bike shoes on strechers is catching !

Maybe I should have gone on Dragons Den

On Sep 18, 2:12 pm, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-to-introduce-rowing-equ...
>
> seems that my idea of using bike shoes on strechers is catching !
>
> Maybe I should have gone on Dragons Den

"According to the company, Shimano will develop and supply high-
quality rowing equipment that satisfies top rowers’ demands. Through
these endeavors, Shimano hopes to help improve rowers’performance
levels."

How do rowing shoes improve perfromance levels? I mean I can see how
they could hinder performance (i.e. if they came off!) but improve
them? Good spiel there from Shimano...

The article says "In five years, Shimano plans to grow its annual
sales of rowing equipment to approximately 3 billion yen/US$28.5
million.".

Assume USD 60 per pair. That equates to sales of ~500,000 units per
year. Assume 10 major rowing nations. That's an average of 50,000
units per nation per year. For the UK, the ARA's website says there
are currently around 23,000 members.

Even if every single rowing person or seat in every country converts
to Shimano's shoes and replaces them every year, this arithmetic seems
way too optimistic. The market just ain't big enough. (see other
thread herebelow re Heel Restraints, which touches on same issue).

Maybe I'm underestimating how many rowers there are in China et al...

On 18 Sep, 16:50, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
> The article says "In five years, Shimano plans to grow its annual
> sales of rowing equipment to approximately 3 billion yen/US$28.5
> million.".
>
> Assume USD 60 per pair. That equates to sales of ~500,000 units per
> year. Assume 10 major rowing nations. That's an average of 50,000
> units per nation per year. For the UK, the ARA's website says there
> are currently around 23,000 members.
>
> Even if every single rowing person or seat in every country converts
> to Shimano's shoes and replaces them every year, this arithmetic seems
> way too optimistic. The market just ain't big enough. (see other
> thread herebelow re Heel Restraints, which touches on same issue).
>
> Maybe I'm underestimating how many rowers there are in China et al...

or maybe they think the girlie rowers are like Imelda Marcos and going
to have dozens of pairs of shoes.....................

On Sep 18, 4:50 pm, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
> The article says "In five years, Shimano plans to grow its annual
> sales of rowing equipment to approximately 3 billion yen/US$28.5
> million.".
>
> Assume USD 60 per pair. That equates to sales of ~500,000 units per
> year. Assume 10 major rowing nations. That's an average of 50,000
> units per nation per year. For the UK, the ARA's website says there
> are currently around 23,000 members.
>
> Even if every single rowing person or seat in every country converts
> to Shimano's shoes and replaces them every year, this arithmetic seems
> way too optimistic. The market just ain't big enough. (see other
> thread herebelow re Heel Restraints, which touches on same issue).
>
> Maybe I'm underestimating how many rowers there are in China et al...

$60 for rowing shoes? they sound like a bargain to me. can't recall
what the current price is for adidas fitted on a plate but i'm pretty
sure they are more expensive than that

I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
locking/stretcher system. Having said that, I agree they are
overestimating the market

martin@tokyoleasing.co.uk schreef:
> On Sep 18, 4:50 pm, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
>> Assume USD 60 per pair. [...]
>
> I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
> locking/stretcher system.

I agree. Think $300/pair. Have a look at the prices of top-end road
cycling shoes and be very afraid (because you still *must* have them).

Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
> martin@tokyoleasing.co.uk schreef:
>> On Sep 18, 4:50 pm, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
>>> Assume USD 60 per pair. [...]
>>
>> I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
>> locking/stretcher system.
>
> I agree. Think $300/pair. Have a look at the prices of top-end road
> cycling shoes and be very afraid (because you still *must* have them).

And it says "To begin with, Shimano plans to develop and launch rowing
shoes" - not sure if anything else in rowing is a particularly good fit
with their existing products. I wonder if they will manage to design a
good, reliable, robust steering shoe?


Is this going to be the start of the "Shimano vs .........." discussions
that inevitably appear on most cycling discussion boards?

I would note the following.

Quintin who have benefitted from the trade in Empachers have 3 good
8's and at least 6
shiny yellow fours's. Thats 48 pairs of shoes. The rowers allowed in
these boats probably number 12 so thats 4 pairs of over priced Adidas
clogs per rower. I could see a market for us at least. I would love to
step off my bike and snap into an 8 although may stress about getting
my Shimano's dirty on the Tideway Beach.

As discussed before I think they could be made safer than heel
restraints and ill fitting clogs.

On Sep 18, 6:22 pm, Ted van de Weteringe
<myfulln...@xs4all.nl.invalid> wrote:
> mar...@tokyoleasing.co.uk schreef:
>
> > On Sep 18, 4:50 pm, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
> >> Assume USD 60 per pair.  [...]
>
> > I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
> > locking/stretcher system.
>
> I agree. Think $300/pair. Have a look at the prices of top-end road
> cycling shoes and be very afraid (because you still *must* have them).

I chose $60 becuse that's my estimate of the highest price that the
"mass" market would be willing to pay.

At $300, you get seriously down the price/volume curve and sales will
be a fraction of what they would be at $60.

So I stand by my point.

I would almost say "finally".
But I've got no idea what to expect from them. But I hope they'll put
some new thoughts on rowing and develop some fine new products for
us :).
But 300 dollar a pair is a bit much in my opinion. But who am I... I
row with cheap looking 30 dollar shoes if you ask me, and those new
adidas shoes are just not fit for me so...
But just a loose thought as they also build bike-frames. Shall they
ever try to develop a boat? As they do have a lot of knowledge in the
area of materials.

Sjobber wrote:
> But just a loose thought as they also build bike-frames. Shall they
> ever try to develop a boat?

They don't make bike frames. I do think that if they go through with the
rowing shoes biz, they will make stretcher systems to fit.

On 18 Sep, 17:04, mar...@tokyoleasing.co.uk wrote:

> $60 for rowing shoes? they sound like a bargain to me. can't recall
> what the current price is for adidas fitted on a plate but i'm pretty
> sure they are more expensive than that
>
> I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
> locking/stretcher system. Having said that, I agree they are
> overestimating the market

Given the shared use of boats in most clubs I can imagine the market
may develop in interesting ways over the years if Shimano makes big
inroads. The quote from Shimano definitely says that they are
planning to sell both the shoes and the footplate - which makes sense.

Let us say that Shimano manage to make a deal with one or more of
Empacher, Filippi, Janousek/Stampfli etc. So, initially they will have
sales linked to sale of boats and we will have the same system as now
that the shoes are owned by the club, used communally and generally
stay in the boat when it is on the rack, only being swapped over when
there is a big size disparity between the oarsman's feet and shoes.
I'm sure my club is not the only one where, at least until a crew is
fixed for the regatta season, people generally just put up with shoes
that are 'more-or-less' right, because it is time-consuming to change
them over.

In this scenario, the shoes will be swapped over more often but the
main advantage of the Shimano clip will purely be that it is an
elegant way of achieving a quick release in the event of capsize.

However, over time, if their system proves to be popular and more and
more boats appear with Shimano fittings, I can imagine that
individuals may be tempted to buy their own pair of shoes which fit
them perfectly, which they can dry at home after the outing, which
they can cycle down in etc etc.

The end point may be that boats sit on the rack just with Shimano
footplates inside and the whole crew brings their own shoes.

"James Elder" <jameselder100@excite.co.uk> wrote in message
news:af7866cb-d688-4ec4-a130-3a84de93e94a@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 18 Sep, 17:04, mar...@tokyoleasing.co.uk wrote:
>
>> $60 for rowing shoes? they sound like a bargain to me. can't recall
>> what the current price is for adidas fitted on a plate but i'm pretty
>> sure they are more expensive than that
>>
>> I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
>> locking/stretcher system. Having said that, I agree they are
>> overestimating the market
>
> Given the shared use of boats in most clubs I can imagine the market
> may develop in interesting ways over the years if Shimano makes big
> inroads. The quote from Shimano definitely says that they are
> planning to sell both the shoes and the footplate - which makes sense.
>
> Let us say that Shimano manage to make a deal with one or more of
> Empacher, Filippi, Janousek/Stampfli etc. So, initially they will have
> sales linked to sale of boats and we will have the same system as now
> that the shoes are owned by the club, used communally and generally
> stay in the boat when it is on the rack, only being swapped over when
> there is a big size disparity between the oarsman's feet and shoes.
> I'm sure my club is not the only one where, at least until a crew is
> fixed for the regatta season, people generally just put up with shoes
> that are 'more-or-less' right, because it is time-consuming to change
> them over.
>
> In this scenario, the shoes will be swapped over more often but the
> main advantage of the Shimano clip will purely be that it is an
> elegant way of achieving a quick release in the event of capsize.
>
> However, over time, if their system proves to be popular and more and
> more boats appear with Shimano fittings, I can imagine that
> individuals may be tempted to buy their own pair of shoes which fit
> them perfectly, which they can dry at home after the outing, which
> they can cycle down in etc etc.
>
> The end point may be that boats sit on the rack just with Shimano
> footplates inside and the whole crew brings their own shoes.

This will never work. Clubs are incapable of maintaining such fittings.
Half the fittings in the boat would always be broken or bodged up so you
couldn't disconnect your feet in case of emergency.

Jeremiah
AKA Chris Shea

P.S. This is based on my GB knowledge, Clubs elsewhere may be a lot more
efficient.

Well good luck to them I say. If they can design a good but simple and
reliable system, I would say that they could clean up and totally
dominate the market in a few seasons. Not a moment too soon IMO.

It would be nice if they could just improve the build quality of the
shoes though. The uppers never seem to last, the stitching breaks and
the velcro wears off and the pathetic soles crack up ... and the
heels.

Anatole

On 23 Sep, 08:36, "AnatoleBe...@googlemail.com"
<anatolebe...@abdm.co.uk> wrote:
> It would be nice if they could just improve the build quality of the
> shoes though. The uppers never seem to last, the stitching breaks and
> the velcro wears off and the pathetic soles crack up ... and the
> heels.

?? I still have the original shoes in my boat after 8 years. The very
top of the heel is just starting to go, but it doesn't really affect
the sculling and 8 years for a pair of regularly used shoes seems
quite reasonable IMHO.

Or are you referring to Chris' comment about club members not looking
after their equipment...

Rob.

On 18 Sep, 14:12, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-to-introduce-rowing-equ...
>
> seems that my idea of using bike shoes on strechers is catching !
>
> Maybe I should have gone on Dragons Den

Presumably cyclists are convinced that their shoes give them some kind
of performance benefit.
Is the same likely to be the case if they were used in a boat?

On Sep 21, 8:23 pm, "Christopher Shea"
<chriss...@DISABLEblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "James Elder" <jameselder...@excite.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:af7866cb-d688-4ec4-a130-3a84de93e94a@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 18 Sep, 17:04, mar...@tokyoleasing.co.uk wrote:
>
> >> $60 for rowing shoes? they sound like a bargain to me. can't recall
> >> what the current price is for adidas fitted on a plate but i'm pretty
> >> sure they are more expensive than that
>
> >> I'm sure shimano will charge much more $60 per pair due of course to
> >> locking/stretcher system. Having said that, I agree they are
> >> overestimating the market
>
> > Given the shared use of boats in most clubs I can imagine the market
> > may develop in interesting ways over the years if Shimano makes big
> > inroads.  The quote from Shimano definitely says that they are
> > planning to sell both the shoes and the footplate - which makes sense.
>
> > Let us say that Shimano manage to make a deal with one or more of
> > Empacher, Filippi, Janousek/Stampfli etc. So, initially they will have
> > sales linked to sale of boats and we will have the same system as now
> > that the shoes are owned by the club, used communally and generally
> > stay in the boat when it is on the rack, only being swapped over when
> > there is a big size disparity between the oarsman's feet and shoes.
> > I'm sure my club is not the only one where, at least until a crew is
> > fixed for the regatta season, people generally just put up with shoes
> > that are 'more-or-less' right, because it is time-consuming to change
> > them over.
>
> > In this scenario, the shoes will be swapped over more often but the
> > main advantage of the Shimano clip will purely be that it is an
> > elegant way of achieving a quick release in the event of capsize.
>
> > However, over time, if their system proves to be popular and more and
> > more boats appear with Shimano fittings, I can imagine that
> > individuals may be tempted to buy their own pair of shoes which fit
> > them perfectly, which they can dry at home after the outing, which
> > they can cycle down in etc etc.
>
> > The end point may be that boats sit on the rack just with Shimano
> > footplates inside and the whole crew brings their own shoes.
>
> This will never work.  Clubs are incapable of maintaining such fittings..
> Half the fittings in the boat would always be broken or bodged up so you
> couldn't disconnect your feet in case of emergency.
>
> Jeremiah
> AKA Chris Shea
>
> P.S.  This is based on my GB knowledge, Clubs elsewhere may be a lot more
> efficient.

My Bumper Boy's Book of Bikes tells me that Shimano clips require
regular maintenance, and that if they do not get it, they show their
displeasure by declining to release the shoe when required. This is
not the optimum outcome.

Having said that, anyone who is willing to invest in the design and
manufacture of a better and more robust system of attaching feet to
boats should be given every encouragement. Present designs are fine
when they are new, but do not last. Steering feet are especially
useless, often requiring ridiculous contortions to transfer half an
inch of movement to the rudder bar.

Anthony

anthonyjones100@hotmail.com wrote:
> My Bumper Boy's Book of Bikes tells me that Shimano clips require
> regular maintenance, and that if they do not get it, they show their
> displeasure by declining to release the shoe when required. This is
> not the optimum outcome.

Years of neglect have never prevented my cleat/pedal clip-in system
(Dura-Ace SPD-R) to release on time.

Andrew wrote:
> Presumably cyclists are convinced that their shoes give them some kind
> of performance benefit.

They are, as am I. The shoe should give good support (tight fitting,
firm, lightly padded), have an extremely stiff sole (carbon/glassfiber)
for direct power transfer and to avoid pressure points and the system
should have enough "float" (not for me please) or be sufficiently
adjustable to avoid knee pains. The difference between mid- and
top-range shoes is of course mostly marketing bullshit.

> Is the same likely to be the case if they were used in a boat?

I guess so. I know I always preferred firm, straight, well-connected,
good fitting shoes over the loose bendy crap that is in most club boats.

Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
> They are, as am I. The shoe should give good support (tight fitting,
> firm, lightly padded), have an extremely stiff sole (carbon/glassfiber)
> for direct power transfer

I've not drawn force diagrams or anything like that but intuitively I
can't see how the stiffness of the sole makes any difference, or if it
does then it's in terms of hampering any heel-lift you might make.

Rowers are dead keen on stiffness :-)

--

Henry Law Manchester, England

"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
news:1222454099.14470.0@proxy01.news.clara.net...
> Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
>> They are, as am I. The shoe should give good support (tight fitting,
>> firm, lightly padded), have an extremely stiff sole (carbon/glassfiber)
>> for direct power transfer
>
> I've not drawn force diagrams or anything like that but intuitively I
> can't see how the stiffness of the sole makes any difference, or if it
> does then it's in terms of hampering any heel-lift you might make.
>
> Rowers are dead keen on stiffness :-)
>
.... in their knees, hips, hamstrings etc.

--
John Mulholland

"Fordmeister" <Fordmeister01@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:25a2b8ce-a7f6-4201-9dff-55abc920cb3d@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-to-introduce-rowing-equipment-18601
>
> seems that my idea of using bike shoes on strechers is catching !
>
> Maybe I should have gone on Dragons Den

I wonder if they have bought Krew-Klips, whose web-site has disappeared.
Their stretcher was based on Shimano pedals. They worked well, except for
steering coxless boats. Also, they did not need heel restraints; as long as
no-one tightened the release mechanism. There was an ARA instruction on
that, but I can't find it on the web-site.

--
John Mulholland