I’m talking ergo here.
I’m planning a winter ergo league for my club, the idea being that all
ages and abilities can take part; everyone will be benchmarked against
a target score based on sex/age/weight. This is not intended to be a
particularly serious or competitive exercise – the senior rowers can
of course thrash themselves in competing against each other, but the
older folks and irregulars can derive benefit from it too.

Consequently I’m expecting (well, hoping) that there will be quite a
few participants who are new or fairly new to the ergo. Many will be
occasional and recreational rowers of 40+.

My question is: can I come up with a simple programme which can get
people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
three sessions? Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
set down a marker for subsequent efforts.

The sort of thing I had in mind was: by the end of session 1, come up
with a split they can sustain (ie not slipping above) for more than 3
minutes but less than 5. By the end of session 2, be able to keep
that up for 6-7 minutes, by the end of session 3 do a 2k test at that
pace.

So – how to structure that first session, and maybe the next two to
arrived at this or any other desired result.

Cheers,
Dave H
Royal S.N. de Bruxelles

I run a couple of indoor ergo clubs.

I personally dont try any tests at such an early stage but if I did
would look at doing fixed seat feet out concentrating on back position
with hands away and then hands away body over...5 minutes on each then
another 5 minutes at quarter slide.

After that cover up the score and pop a heart rate monitor on...tell
them to go to full slide with the feet loosely held in place.
Depending on age /weight etc not to exceed a set heart rate...say
140/150 and a rate cap say 24/26 then look at the score at the end of
the session but talk to them throughout reminding them of what you
want to achieve.

I dont think a flat out blast with inadequate technique is necessarily
meaningful and quite possibly harmful if you have some unfit
overweight new rower having a go.

Regards

Donal

On 18 Sep, 13:49, "david.hender...@aea.be" <david.hender...@aea.be>
wrote:
> I’m talking ergo here.
> I’m planning a winter ergo league for my club, the idea being that all
> ages and abilities can take part; everyone will be benchmarked against
> a target score based on sex/age/weight.  This is not intended to be a
> particularly serious or competitive exercise – the senior rowers can
> of course thrash themselves in competing against each other, but the
> older folks and irregulars can derive benefit from it too.
>
> Consequently I’m expecting (well, hoping) that there will be quite a
> few participants who are new or fairly new to the ergo.  Many will be
> occasional and recreational rowers of 40+.
>
> My question is:  can I come up with a simple programme which can get
> people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
> three sessions?  Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
> set down a marker for subsequent efforts.
>
> The sort of thing I had in mind was:  by the end of session 1, come up
> with a split they can sustain (ie not slipping above) for more than 3
> minutes but less than 5.  By the end of session 2, be able to keep
> that up for 6-7 minutes, by the end of session 3 do a 2k test at that
> pace.
>
> So – how to structure that first session, and maybe the next two to
> arrived at this or any other desired result.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave H
> Royal S.N. de Bruxelles

though would HR140 be too tough for someone unfit - I really dont
know??????

On 18 Sep, 16:17, "donal.ca...@gmail.com" <donal.ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I run a couple of indoor ergo clubs.
>
> I personally dont try any tests at such an early stage but if I did
> would look at doing fixed seat feet out concentrating on back position
> with hands away and then hands away body over...5 minutes on each then
> another 5 minutes at quarter slide.
>
> After that cover up the score and pop a heart rate monitor on...tell
> them to go to full slide with the feet loosely held in place.
> Depending on age /weight etc not to exceed a set heart rate...say
> 140/150 and a rate cap say 24/26 then look at the score at the end of
> the session but talk to them throughout reminding them of what you
> want to achieve.
>
> I dont think a flat out blast with inadequate technique is necessarily
> meaningful and quite possibly harmful if you have some unfit
> overweight new rower having a go.
>
> Regards
>
> Donal
>
> On 18 Sep, 13:49, "david.hender...@aea.be" <david.hender...@aea.be>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I’m talking ergo here.
> > I’m planning a winter ergo league for my club, the idea being that all
> > ages and abilities can take part; everyone will be benchmarked against
> > a target score based on sex/age/weight.  This is not intended to be a
> > particularly serious or competitive exercise – the senior rowers can
> > of course thrash themselves in competing against each other, but the
> > older folks and irregulars can derive benefit from it too.
>
> > Consequently I’m expecting (well, hoping) that there will be quite a
> > few participants who are new or fairly new to the ergo.  Many will be
> > occasional and recreational rowers of 40+.
>
> > My question is:  can I come up with a simple programme which can get
> > people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
> > three sessions?  Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
> > set down a marker for subsequent efforts.
>
> > The sort of thing I had in mind was:  by the end of session 1, come up
> > with a split they can sustain (ie not slipping above) for more than 3
> > minutes but less than 5.  By the end of session 2, be able to keep
> > that up for 6-7 minutes, by the end of session 3 do a 2k test at that
> > pace.
>
> > So – how to structure that first session, and maybe the next two to
> > arrived at this or any other desired result.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Dave H
> > Royal S.N. de Bruxelles- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

<donal.casey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c02aa344-70e8-4cc9-8a0b-d4740fac1f63@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> though would HR140 be too tough for someone unfit - I really dont
> know??????

Not just heart rate, but people using new muscles for the first time can
develop injuries, particularly older out of shape folks.

When I teach beginner sculling, I limit water time to 45 mins at most,
particularly for someone never in a boat.

At the Clear Lake club, an eight had gone out for a row, a wind came
up, they lost track of time a bit, and ended up about 30 mins long,
and had to pull a bit harder and longer than they were used to to get in.

one older woman strained her elbow, which a few days later became
infected. People will strain their backs lifting a light boat out of the
water after a long row.

Go really easy, for people trying to get fit I suggest setting up a team
spirit to get people to come time and time again. I've always counselled
that the hardest part of the workout is putting on the running shoes.

david.henderson@aea.be schreef:
> My question is: can I come up with a simple programme which can get
> people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
> three sessions? Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
> set down a marker for subsequent efforts.

My suggestion:
Session 1: let them do 6x 500m at self-perceived effort "easy" (3x),
"medium" (2x), "full" (1x). Take 15' rest before full, gives you time to
evaluate the session so far and set a (non-ambitious!) target for the
last 500m. Could be: 3x 2:15, 2x 1:55, 1x 1:45.
Session 2: 1x 15' easy (~2:20), 1x 2000m medium (~2:00), 1x 1000m hard
(~1:50 != full).
Session 3: 20' warming up, 1x 500m at target pace (1:50?), 10' active
rest, 5' concentration, 2000m test.

Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
> My suggestion:
> Session 1: let them do 6x 500m at self-perceived effort "easy" (3x),
> "medium" (2x), "full" (1x). Take 15' rest before full, gives you time to
> evaluate the session so far and set a (non-ambitious!) target for the
> last 500m. Could be: 3x 2:15, 2x 1:55, 1x 1:45.

Don't disagree with the basis of your thinking but 1:55 and 1:45 are
rather high, I think, for really out-of-condition folks, unless they're
young and fundamentally pretty strong. I rarely see *anyone* in my
local gym rating much under 2:00 (aside from the small number of rowers
or ex-rowers).

--

Henry Law Manchester, England

Henry Law schreef:
> Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
>> My suggestion:
>> Session 1: let them do 6x 500m at self-perceived effort "easy" (3x),
>> "medium" (2x), "full" (1x). Take 15' rest before full, gives you time
>> to evaluate the session so far and set a (non-ambitious!) target for
>> the last 500m. Could be: 3x 2:15, 2x 1:55, 1x 1:45.
>
> Don't disagree with the basis of your thinking but 1:55 and 1:45 are
> rather high, I think, for really out-of-condition folks, unless they're
> young and fundamentally pretty strong.

Sure, but note I said perceived effort. Tell 'm to do "easy" and see
what they get. If easy is 2:15, then medium could be around 1:55, etc.

On Sep 18, 1:17 pm, "donal.ca...@gmail.com" <donal.ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I run a couple of indoor ergo clubs.
>
> I personally dont try any tests at such an early stage but if I did
> would look at doing fixed seat feet out concentrating on back position
> with hands away and then hands away body over...5 minutes on each then
> another 5 minutes at quarter slide.
>
> After that cover up the score and pop a heart rate monitor on...tell
> them to go to full slide with the feet loosely held in place.
> Depending on age /weight etc not to exceed a set heart rate...say
> 140/150 and a rate cap say 24/26 then look at the score at the end of
> the session but talk to them throughout reminding them of what you
> want to achieve.
>
> I dont think a flat out blast with inadequate technique is necessarily
> meaningful and quite possibly harmful if you have some unfit
> overweight new rower having a go.
>
> Regards
>
> Donal
>
> On 18 Sep, 13:49, "david.hender...@aea.be" <david.hender...@aea.be>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I’m talking ergo here.
> > I’m planning a winter ergo league for my club, the idea being that all
> > ages and abilities can take part; everyone will be benchmarked against
> > a target score based on sex/age/weight.  This is not intended to be a
> > particularly serious or competitive exercise – the senior rowers can
> > of course thrash themselves in competing against each other, but the
> > older folks and irregulars can derive benefit from it too.
>
> > Consequently I’m expecting (well, hoping) that there will be quite a
> > few participants who are new or fairly new to the ergo.  Many will be
> > occasional and recreational rowers of 40+.
>
> > My question is:  can I come up with a simple programme which can get
> > people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
> > three sessions?  Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
> > set down a marker for subsequent efforts.
>
> > The sort of thing I had in mind was:  by the end of session 1, come up
> > with a split they can sustain (ie not slipping above) for more than 3
> > minutes but less than 5.  By the end of session 2, be able to keep
> > that up for 6-7 minutes, by the end of session 3 do a 2k test at that
> > pace.
>
> > So – how to structure that first session, and maybe the next two to
> > arrived at this or any other desired result.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Dave H
> > Royal S.N. de Bruxelles- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

One of the highlights of my university rowing days were the novice
rowing erg tests. We would get something like 40 or 50 guys every
year (average age ~ 20) to try out for the team (narrowed down to 16
or so). Among other things, we made them all do a 2500m test on about
day 3 with virtually no prep and everybody did it infront of everyone
else, not to mention that most of the varsity guys would show up to
watch. We'd just call 5 guys, give them 30 seconds of warmup and go.
It was incredible because they had almost no idea what to do and
probably 95% went out way to fast. And they were infront of the rest
of them so almost none of them would ever give up despite some serious
distress. It was an incredible spectacle, you'd see the look on their
faces usually after 1000m when they realize it's still not halfway. I
would still say it was the longest nine minutes of my life.

On Sep 18, 1:49 pm, "david.hender...@aea.be" <david.hender...@aea.be>
wrote:
> I’m talking ergo here.
> I’m planning a winter ergo league for my club, the idea being that all
> ages and abilities can take part; everyone will be benchmarked against
> a target score based on sex/age/weight.  This is not intended to be a
> particularly serious or competitive exercise – the senior rowers can
> of course thrash themselves in competing against each other, but the
> older folks and irregulars can derive benefit from it too.
>
> Consequently I’m expecting (well, hoping) that there will be quite a
> few participants who are new or fairly new to the ergo.  Many will be
> occasional and recreational rowers of 40+.
>
> My question is:  can I come up with a simple programme which can get
> people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
> three sessions?  Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
> set down a marker for subsequent efforts.
>
> The sort of thing I had in mind was:  by the end of session 1, come up
> with a split they can sustain (ie not slipping above) for more than 3
> minutes but less than 5.  By the end of session 2, be able to keep
> that up for 6-7 minutes, by the end of session 3 do a 2k test at that
> pace.
>
> So – how to structure that first session, and maybe the next two to
> arrived at this or any other desired result.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave H
> Royal S.N. de Bruxelles

I've got a nice little excel spreadsheet that was done for use by
Vets. Calculates crew average age and weight and erg scores, then
weights your personal performance to see how you compare. Only for
males, but you could easily include females if desired. Let me know
if you'd like it.

Certainly Im very much in favour of go till you blow for fit young
folk is fine...but think that for 40+
age group the blow could be rather more extreme than your memories of
student days................

> > On 18 Sep, 13:49, "david.hender...@aea.be" <david.hender...@aea.be>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I’m talking ergo here.
> > > I’m planning a winter ergo league for my club, the idea being that all
> > > ages and abilities can take part; everyone will be benchmarked against
> > > a target score based on sex/age/weight.  This is not intended to bea
> > > particularly serious or competitive exercise – the senior rowers can
> > > of course thrash themselves in competing against each other, but the
> > > older folks and irregulars can derive benefit from it too.
>
> > > Consequently I’m expecting (well, hoping) that there will be quite a
> > > few participants who are new or fairly new to the ergo.  Many will be
> > > occasional and recreational rowers of 40+.
>
> > > My question is:  can I come up with a simple programme which can get
> > > people who are unused to the ergo to pull a meaningful 2k within, say
> > > three sessions?  Doesn’t need to be a brilliant time, but enough to
> > > set down a marker for subsequent efforts.
>
> > > The sort of thing I had in mind was:  by the end of session 1, comeup
> > > with a split they can sustain (ie not slipping above) for more than 3
> > > minutes but less than 5.  By the end of session 2, be able to keep
> > > that up for 6-7 minutes, by the end of session 3 do a 2k test at that
> > > pace.
>
> > > So – how to structure that first session, and maybe the next two to
> > > arrived at this or any other desired result.
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Dave H
> > > Royal S.N. de Bruxelles- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> One of the highlights of my university rowing days were the novice
> rowing erg tests.  We would get something like 40 or 50 guys every
> year (average age ~ 20) to try out for the team (narrowed down to 16
> or so).  Among other things, we made them all do a 2500m test on about
> day 3 with virtually no prep and everybody did it infront of everyone
> else, not to mention that most of the varsity guys would show up to
> watch.  We'd just call 5 guys, give them 30 seconds of warmup and go.
> It was incredible because they had almost no idea what to do and
> probably 95% went out way to fast.  And they were infront of the rest
> of them so almost none of them would ever give up despite some serious
> distress.  It was an incredible spectacle, you'd see the look on their
> faces usually after 1000m when they realize it's still not halfway.  I
> would still say it was the longest nine minutes of my life.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the answers. The folks I have in mind are generally
competent rowers, probably fairly fit and not unused to the concept of
‘paddle firm’, but just unfamiliar with the ergo – maybe they have
used it from time to time for a bit of pre-outing warm-up but haven’t
bothered to investigate its finer points.

I was just looking for a way that such people can find themselves a
pace that they can sustain for 2k, in a relatively short time, with a
minimum of trial and error. Especially, I don’t want to find myself
having to spend a lot of time supervising them. Ewoud’s little
programme was more or less what I was looking for although if my
middle-aged ladies were doing the kind of splits he was talking about
they wouldn’t need me to tell them how to plan a 2k.

There will probably be new rowers joining the scheme, and they will
need more time, and more structured coaching.

Dave H

david.henderson@aea.be wrote:
> I was just looking for a way that such people can find themselves a
> pace that they can sustain for 2k, in a relatively short time, with a
> minimum of trial and error. Especially, I don’t want to find myself
> having to spend a lot of time supervising them. Ewoud’s little
> programme was more or less what I was looking for although if my
> middle-aged ladies were doing the kind of splits he was talking about
> they wouldn’t need me to tell them how to plan a 2k.

Oh, of course. My premise was: how to get the rowers a somewhat
meaningful idea of "self-perceived effort." Thinking that you, the
coach, might get insight into their future limits or even their current
efforts in just 3 sessions, is overly ambitious. So explain to them that
they themselves, not you, need to get a feeling for the numbers on the
screen over the course of this little programme. γνῶθι σαυτόν.

On Sep 22, 9:24 am, "donal.ca...@gmail.com" <donal.ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Certainly Im very much in favour of go till you blow for fit young
> folk is fine...but think that for 40+
> age group the blow could be rather more extreme than your memories of
> student days................

Yes, right, not advised on the cardiac crowd. Mind you, it was more
evidence of the dangers of testosterone as much as anything else. I'm
not sure it would happen without the environment we set up.

But seriously, if you are ever running any kind of university novice
tryouts, the 2500m test in front of a big crowd is a sight to behold.