Ya know....

Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
"recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do.
That's one of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in
Cincinati, when things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then
Barry Larkin and then Junior's and then Dunn's.

The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.

I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
played another game for the reds.

Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star.
While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen.

Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
anywhere.

Phillips is about to get expensive.
2009: $4,75 mm
2010 $6,75 mm
2011: $11 mm
2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract
represent value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is
currently at, then those last two years are gonna kill your budget.

While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen
Bases and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a
function of where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below
league average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually
pretty bad. (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)

The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop,
but don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier
comes to mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base
in the minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second
base, but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+
is comparable to Phillips.

Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they have.

Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over
his middle infield on a regular basis.

Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
it happens.

dfs

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, David Short wrote:

> Ya know....
>
> Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do. That's one of
> the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in Cincinati, when things
> went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then Barry Larkin and then Junior's
> and then Dunn's.
>
> dfs
>


I wouldn't shed many tears. When the media started their blogs a few years
back, I think before they realized how exposed they could be, I heard
mention that certain of them did not like BD. I saw Edwin's homerun
the other night with BD on and I am not even sure if BD congradulated
him Could have been wrong on that though.

Some real positives though but have noted the same as you on the
potential negatives.

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:01 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
>
>Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
>EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
>likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
>it happens.

My first preference would be to stick him at shortstop, where his
offensive warts are less, well offensive, and where we don't really
have anyone in line. If Keppinger and Hairston can be put out there
with a straight face, then BP should be able to shine. I think simply
switching Keppinger and him this year would've resulted in an extra
win or two. Although, I'm suspecting that Renteria might make an
appearance next year. I hope not, but I think it's possible.

Barring putting BP at short, I agree with your premise, although I
don't let him go for anything other than a king's ransom. My
philosophy would be to dangle him this year and see if anyone
overwhelms you, then if not, to push real hard to sell next year,
giving someone a bargain year and letting them deal with the back end.
We should still be able to get good value for that year.

I wouldn't be totally surprised to see him as part of a deal for Matt
Holliday. MH seems to be the type of player WJ is famous for
obtaining. That is, unless WJ is just mailing it in.

Then again, although WJ has been famous for succesfully churning thru
mediocre middle infielders, he also is pretty keen on defense, and BP
is pretty much hands down this team's best defender.

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:01 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>Ya know....
>
>Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do.
>That's one of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in
>Cincinati, when things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then
>Barry Larkin and then Junior's and then Dunn's.
>
>The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
>rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
>hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
>fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
>Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
>it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
>year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.
>
>I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
>played another game for the reds.
>
>Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star.
>While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
>is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen.
>
>Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
>anywhere.
>
>Phillips is about to get expensive.
>2009: $4,75 mm
>2010 $6,75 mm
>2011: $11 mm
>2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract
>represent value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is
>currently at, then those last two years are gonna kill your budget.
>
>While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen
>Bases and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a
>function of where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below
>league average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually
>pretty bad. (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)
>
>The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop,
>but don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier
>comes to mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base
>in the minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second
>base, but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+
>is comparable to Phillips.
>
>Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they have.
>
>Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over
>his middle infield on a regular basis.
>
>Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
>EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
>likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
>it happens.

I think this team is about go from perennial slightly less than mediocre
team, to a league laughing stock.


******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************

Kevin McClave wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:01 -0400, David Short
>> Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
>> EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
>> likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
>> it happens.
>
> I think this team is about go from perennial slightly less than mediocre
> team, to a league laughing stock.

.....Huh. You probably have a better perspective on it than I do. I just
assumed the rest of the country felt about the reds the way we feel
about the Pirates. "Oh, yeah, they're in our division too and we'll be
in front of them."

I'll be very interested in the offseason.

dfs

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:05:43 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>Kevin McClave wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:01 -0400, David Short
>>> Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
>>> EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
>>> likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
>>> it happens.
>>
>> I think this team is about go from perennial slightly less than mediocre
>> team, to a league laughing stock.
>
>....Huh. You probably have a better perspective on it than I do. I just
>assumed the rest of the country felt about the reds the way we feel
>about the Pirates. "Oh, yeah, they're in our division too and we'll be
>in front of them."

I think that's how we probably were perceived (that's what I mean by
perennially slightly below mediocre...if the stars aligned we finish at
..500), but we're headed for darker road, I think.

>I'll be very interested in the offseason.

I don't think I will.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************

On Sep 12, 9:32 am, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:01 -0400, David Short
>
>
>
>
>
> <David.no.Sh...@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
> >Ya know....
>
> >Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> >   "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do.
> >That's one of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in
> >Cincinati, when things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then
> >Barry Larkin and then Junior's and then Dunn's.
>
> >The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
> >rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
> >hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
> >fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
> >Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
> >it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
> >year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.
>
> >I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
> >played another game for the reds.
>
> >Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star.
> >While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
> >is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen.
>
> >Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
> >anywhere.
>
> >Phillips is about to get expensive.
> >2009: $4,75 mm
> >2010 $6,75 mm
> >2011: $11 mm
> >2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract
> >represent value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is
> >currently at, then those last two years are gonna kill your budget.
>
> >While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen
> >Bases and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a
> >function of where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below
> >league average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually
> >pretty bad. (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)
>
> >The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop,
> >but don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier
> >comes to mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base
> >in the minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second
> >base, but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+
> >is comparable to Phillips.
>
> >Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they have.
>
> >Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over
> >his middle infield on a regular basis.
>
> >Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
> >EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
> >likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
> >it happens.
>
> I think this team is about go from perennial slightly less than mediocre
> team, to a league laughing stock.
>


I've said this several times over the past few months and people might
think I'm crazy, but I keep looking at our frontline pitching and I
cant help but think that we're in pretty good shape in that dept
heading into 2009.

We've got 3/4 of a passable infield and 1 young outfielder that most
teams would trade a bundle to get. How hard can it be to find a couple
of half decent outfielders, assuming you actually look. The Reds
havent had to because they've had such a surplus of them for most of
the past 7 years.

Then theres catching....

Look at the Angels. How did they win so many games this year? theres
nothing special going on offensively. The starting pitchers are solid
but hardly inspire fear in the opposition. Volquez and a healthy
Harang are as good as anybody they've got. Cueto can be. A couple
pitchers in their pen are having great years. Their defense and
baserunning are generally very good. But I think they've won so many
games mainly because they play in a crappy division that has
underperformed.
the Reds have been very unfortunate to be a mediocre-but-not-
horrible team in a tough division (pre-trades). if they had been in
the West or East, this is maybe a .500 team; perhaps even better with
a healthy Harang. But Houston and St. louis have been much better than
experts expectations. The Cubs probably have too. Division quality
goes up and down each year for whatever reasons. The Central may be
just average next season, which would certainly benefit this club.
I'm not drinking kool-aid already. i just cant seem to feel
pessimistic about 2009. How hard can it be to find a couple legitimate
corner outfielders, and a catcher who can stop the ball and hit his
weight? I feel much better about the potential pitching than I do
about the offense. To me, thats certainly a refreshing change from
previous offseasons.

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclave@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:tfflc4dfovpia5lap2h6g1u556bvfn2ji3@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:05:43 -0400, David Short
> <David.no.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
>
>>Kevin McClave wrote:
>>> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:01 -0400, David Short
>>>> Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
>>>> EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
>>>> likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
>>>> it happens.
>>>
>>> I think this team is about go from perennial slightly less than mediocre
>>> team, to a league laughing stock.
>>
>>....Huh. You probably have a better perspective on it than I do. I just
>>assumed the rest of the country felt about the reds the way we feel
>>about the Pirates. "Oh, yeah, they're in our division too and we'll be
>>in front of them."
>
> I think that's how we probably were perceived (that's what I mean by
> perennially slightly below mediocre...if the stars aligned we finish at
> .500), but we're headed for darker road, I think.
>
>>I'll be very interested in the offseason.
>
> I don't think I will.
>
> ******************************************************************
> Kevin McClave
>
> "To justify himself, each relies on
> the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
> ******************************************************************


Ahh Yes We seem to have little faith now don,t we Kevin LOL If the
scientists in France don't create a black hole that eats the earth, Wait
till Next Year.

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:58:20 -0700 (PDT), tmbowman25@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> We've got 3/4 of a passable infield and 1 young outfielder that most
>teams would trade a bundle to get.

It's interesting that you say that, when most pundits openly state we
have 3 out of 4 guys playing out of position on the infield, and even
WJ this week acknowledged that there might be some positional moves in
the offseason.

This is what they are saying:

Votto should be a left fielder, and likely will be, if he remains with
the team once the wonderboy Alonso comes up in 2010.

EE should be a 1B because he can't throw.

Keppinger should be a 2nd baseman because he has no range.



For myself, I think the simple switch of Phillips to SS would make a
lot of ills go away, and Keppinger or Hairston (blah) or another can
hold it down until maybe Frazier has a monster year and makes the big
club in 2010. I like Kep as a utility guy, but I don't think he's a
starter. If the plan really is to move Votto, then either trade him
for a bundle or make the move in offseason and bring in a placeholder
1B, preferably a RHed one that can mash.

I still like EE at 3rd.

"David Short" <David.no.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
news:gabovf$4cj$1@posting.glorb.com...
> Ya know....
>
> Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do. That's one
> of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in Cincinati, when
> things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then Barry Larkin and then
> Junior's and then Dunn's.
>
> The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
> rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
> hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
> fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
> Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
> it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
> year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.
>
> I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
> played another game for the reds.
>
> Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star.
> While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
> is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen.
>
> Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
> anywhere.
>
> Phillips is about to get expensive.
> 2009: $4,75 mm
> 2010 $6,75 mm
> 2011: $11 mm
> 2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract represent
> value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is currently at, then
> those last two years are gonna kill your budget.
>
> While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen Bases
> and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a function of
> where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below league
> average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually pretty bad.
> (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)
>
> The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop, but
> don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier comes to
> mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base in the
> minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second base,
> but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+ is
> comparable to Phillips.
>
> Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they have.
>
> Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over his
> middle infield on a regular basis.
>
> Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
> EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
> likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if it
> happens.

I totally agree with this. Not a Phillips fan. Not because he showboats or
because he has a me attitude, but simply because he doesn't produce. His
..312 OBP was the lowest among the team amont the regulars (last I looked).
He's the easiest out in the lineup because he only tries to jack the ball
out of the park. He's a below league average hitter. Deal him to someone
who will bite on the counting stats. He has enough tools to make Bowden
salivate.

On Oct 1, 10:24 pm, "RJA" <r...@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> "David Short" <David.no.Sh...@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:gabovf$4cj$1@posting.glorb.com...
>
>
>
> > Ya know....
>
> > Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> > "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do. That's one
> > of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in Cincinati, when
> > things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then Barry Larkin and then
> > Junior's and then Dunn's.
>
> > The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
> > rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
> > hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
> > fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
> > Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
> > it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
> > year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.
>
> > I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
> > played another game for the reds.
>
> > Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star.
> > While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
> > is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen.
>
> > Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
> > anywhere.
>
> > Phillips is about to get expensive.
> > 2009: $4,75 mm
> > 2010 $6,75 mm
> > 2011: $11 mm
> > 2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract represent
> > value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is currently at, then
> > those last two years are gonna kill your budget.
>
> > While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen Bases
> > and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a function of
> > where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below league
> > average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually pretty bad.
> > (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)
>
> > The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop, but
> > don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier comes to
> > mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base in the
> > minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second base,
> > but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+ is
> > comparable to Phillips.
>
> > Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they have.
>
> > Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over his
> > middle infield on a regular basis.
>
> > Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
> > EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
> > likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if it
> > happens.
>
> I totally agree with this.  Not a Phillips fan.  Not because he showboats or
> because he has a me attitude, but simply because he doesn't produce.  His
> .312 OBP was the lowest among the team amont the regulars (last I looked)..
> He's the easiest out in the lineup because he only tries to jack the ball
> out of the park.  He's a below league average hitter.  Deal him to someone
> who will bite on the counting stats.  He has enough tools to make Bowden
> salivate.

I'm also not a huge Phillips backer, but I think this past season
might not be a good measuring stick. When the offense went in the
tank, and especially after the trades, too much pressure was put on
him to produce. Asking him to bat cleanup was a lousy idea, and he
responded with an overly aggressive and lousy performance.

On a good team, Phillips bats sixth. On the Reds... well, he was the
only guy in the dugout with a 30 homer season and I think Baker just
pushed him into the wrong role.

"tom dunne" <dunnetg@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:514e0543-a7b4-4d51-aa1a-b437e13b263c@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 1, 10:24 pm, "RJA" <r...@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> "David Short" <David.no.Sh...@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:gabovf$4cj$1@posting.glorb.com...
>
>
>
> > Ya know....
>
> > Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> > "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do. That's
> > one
> > of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in Cincinati, when
> > things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then Barry Larkin and
> > then
> > Junior's and then Dunn's.
>
> > The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
> > rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
> > hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
> > fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
> > Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
> > it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
> > year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.
>
> > I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
> > played another game for the reds.
>
> > Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star.
> > While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
> > is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen.
>
> > Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
> > anywhere.
>
> > Phillips is about to get expensive.
> > 2009: $4,75 mm
> > 2010 $6,75 mm
> > 2011: $11 mm
> > 2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract
> > represent
> > value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is currently at,
> > then
> > those last two years are gonna kill your budget.
>
> > While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen
> > Bases
> > and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a function of
> > where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below league
> > average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually pretty bad.
> > (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)
>
> > The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop,
> > but
> > don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier comes
> > to
> > mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base in the
> > minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second base,
> > but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+ is
> > comparable to Phillips.
>
> > Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they
> > have.
>
> > Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over
> > his
> > middle infield on a regular basis.
>
> > Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
> > EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
> > likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
> > it
> > happens.
>
> I totally agree with this. Not a Phillips fan. Not because he showboats or
> because he has a me attitude, but simply because he doesn't produce. His
> .312 OBP was the lowest among the team amont the regulars (last I looked).
> He's the easiest out in the lineup because he only tries to jack the ball
> out of the park. He's a below league average hitter. Deal him to someone
> who will bite on the counting stats. He has enough tools to make Bowden
> salivate.

>I'm also not a huge Phillips backer, but I think this past season
>might not be a good measuring stick. When the offense went in the
>tank, and especially after the trades, too much pressure was put on
>him to produce. Asking him to bat cleanup was a lousy idea, and he
>responded with an overly aggressive and lousy performance.

Well, he was the cleanup hitter for most of 2007 as well. It's hard to say.
After May, he pretty much went into the crapper. Griffey and Dunn were here
until August.

>On a good team, Phillips bats sixth. On the Reds... well, he was the
>only guy in the dugout with a 30 homer season and I think Baker just
>pushed him into the wrong role.

So next year when Baker bats him 2nd, do you see him backing off of the long
ball and playing a different role (get on base, move leadoff man over like
Barry Larkin) or does he still try to be the guy? He has been saying all
year that he wants to be the guy, etc. so I'm not sure that's the role that
he wants.

On Oct 4, 6:33 pm, "RJA" <r...@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> "tom dunne" <dunn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:514e0543-a7b4-4d51-aa1a-b437e13b263c@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 1, 10:24 pm, "RJA" <r...@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "David Short" <David.no.Sh...@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
>
> >news:gabovf$4cj$1@posting.glorb.com...
>
> > > Ya know....
>
> > > Bad teams have a tendancy to blame their best players. Those players get
> > > "recognized" more for what they don't do than for what they do. That's
> > > one
> > > of the reasons bad organizations are bad. We saw it in Cincinati, when
> > > things went south it was Eric Davis' fault and then Barry Larkin and
> > > then
> > > Junior's and then Dunn's.
>
> > > The current media darling of the reds is Brandon Phillips. who by all
> > > rights is decent enough baseball player. He's been miscast as a cleanup
> > > hitter by a couple of dump "baseball guys," but that isn't Phillip's
> > > fault. He's said some pretty dump things to the newspaper guys which IS
> > > Brandon Phillip's fault, but so far nobody has held him accountable for
> > > it. He had a "historic" 30/30 season last year and was good enough this
> > > year and of course now he has a broken finger and his year is over.
>
> > > I think it would be best for the organization if Brandon Phillips never
> > > played another game for the reds.
>
> > > Brandon is a good enough player, but he's not really any kind of star..
> > > While the local media can cry that he's an overlooked all-star, the fact
> > > is that you don't have to look very far to find better second basemen..
>
> > > Phillips perceives himself as a team leader. He's never led anybody
> > > anywhere.
>
> > > Phillips is about to get expensive.
> > > 2009: $4,75 mm
> > > 2010 $6,75 mm
> > > 2011: $11 mm
> > > 2012: $11 mm w $ 1mm buyout. The next two years on his contract
> > > represent
> > > value, but if he doesn't progress from the level he is currently at,
> > > then
> > > those last two years are gonna kill your budget.
>
> > > While Phillips produces really nice counting stats, (homers, Stolen
> > > Bases
> > > and RBI) you have to remember that the RBI's are largely a function of
> > > where he's hitting in the order. His OPS+ is actually below league
> > > average. His OPS+ against right handed pitchers is actually pretty bad.
> > > (There are a LOT of right handed pitchers)
>
> > > The reds have a bunch of guys in the minors who are playing shorstop,
> > > but
> > > don't really project to be major league shortstops. Todd Frazier comes
> > > to
> > > mind pretty quickly. They have a bunch of talent at third base in the
> > > minors. Jerry Hairston and Ryan Freel won't look pretty at second base,
> > > but they could keep the position warm. Both player's career OPS+ is
> > > comparable to Phillips.
>
> > > Phillips probably represents the most tradable non-pitcher that they
> > > have.
>
> > > Finally, Jockety didn't have any trouble in St. Louis in turning over
> > > his
> > > middle infield on a regular basis.
>
> > > Last season I maintained that the reds should listen to offers for
> > > EVERYBODY. I think the same thing is true this year. I don't think it's
> > > likely that Phillips goes this off season, but I won't be surprised if
> > > it
> > > happens.
>
> > I totally agree with this. Not a Phillips fan. Not because he showboatsor
> > because he has a me attitude, but simply because he doesn't produce. His
> > .312 OBP was the lowest among the team amont the regulars (last I looked).
> > He's the easiest out in the lineup because he only tries to jack the ball
> > out of the park. He's a below league average hitter. Deal him to someone
> > who will bite on the counting stats. He has enough tools to make Bowden
> > salivate.
> >I'm also not a huge Phillips backer, but I think this past season
> >might not be a good measuring stick.  When the offense went in the
> >tank, and especially after the trades, too much pressure was put on
> >him to produce.  Asking him to bat cleanup was a lousy idea, and he
> >responded with an overly aggressive and lousy performance.
>
> Well, he was the cleanup hitter for most of 2007 as well.  It's hard tosay.
> After May, he pretty much went into the crapper.  Griffey and Dunn werehere
> until August.
>
> >On a good team, Phillips bats sixth.  On the Reds... well, he was the
> >only guy in the dugout with a 30 homer season and I think Baker just
> >pushed him into the wrong role.
>
> So next year when Baker bats him 2nd, do you see him backing off of the long
> ball and playing a different role (get on base, move leadoff man over like
> Barry Larkin) or does he still try to be the guy?  He has been saying all
> year that he wants to be the guy, etc. so I'm not sure that's the role that
> he wants.

I think Phillips just doesn't understand what it means to be a team
leader. Larkin's a great example, batting first or second most of his
career and winning an MVP in the process. Derek Jeter is the man in
New York, and he's essentially played his whole career in the second
spot. Doesn't matter who's behind him, Giambi or A-Rod or Posada or
any other power bat; Jeter is the Yankees.

I think a good manager could help Phillips understand that. Instead,
he has Dusty Baker encouraging him to be something he's not. If this
was an isolated incident, I might read less into it, but after
watching Baker try to convince himself Patterson was a leadoff hitter
and refusing to drop Griffey out of the third spot... Phillips might
be a great team leader and two-hole hitter, if his manager wasn't
enabling delusions of grandeur.