Any more advances in this field?

We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...

"cyd523" <clive.pendry@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:3fde5c43-57e5-43bf-aec2-a2824b0ba403@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Any more advances in this field?
>
> We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...
>

cable ties / zip ties

On Sep 9, 2:05 pm, "Matt Kaminski" <mkamin...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> "cyd523" <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:3fde5c43-57e5-43bf-aec2-a2824b0ba403@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > Any more advances in this field?
> > We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...
>
> cable ties / zip ties

Worse than shoe string IMO is what I see far too often in the UK - a
thinnish strip if leather [OK, might not be leather, but definitely
stretches as it perishes] which is then bolted into the BOTTOM of the
stretcher ..... necessitating removal of the stretcher when the nasty
umpire takes exception, so that you can find out which sort of
screwdriver head you should have had with you to engage the bolt.

Opinions?

Richard

On 9 Sep, 14:51, rdupa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 9, 2:05 pm, "Matt Kaminski" <mkamin...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > "cyd523" <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> >news:3fde5c43-57e5-43bf-aec2-a2824b0ba403@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com....
> > > Any more advances in this field?
> > > We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...
>
> > cable ties / zip ties
>
> Worse than shoe string IMO is what I see far too often in the UK - a
> thinnish strip if leather [OK, might not be leather, but definitely
> stretches as it perishes] which is then bolted into the BOTTOM of the
> stretcher ..... necessitating removal of the stretcher when the nasty
> umpire takes exception, so that you can find out which sort of
> screwdriver head you should have had with you to engage the bolt.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Richard

A bugbear of mine too. The strap has holes nicely drilled but they are
always factory fitted and supplied with the strap at the longest
length which is fine (but only just) when delivered, but definitely
not after use when the leather is stretched.

A shoelace of sufficient robustness, well maintained and the correct
length is pefectly adequate.

On 9 Sep, 14:05, "Matt Kaminski" <mkamin...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> "cyd523" <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3fde5c43-57e5-43bf-aec2-a2824b0ba403@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Any more advances in this field?
>
> > We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...
>
> cable ties / zip ties

Bolt shoe heels to stretcher. Allow athlete heels to come up (if
needed) by not fastening the laces/velcro or by oversize shoes.

You've just re-invented the clog!


>
> Bolt shoe heels to stretcher. Allow athlete heels to come up (if
> needed) by not fastening the laces/velcro or by oversize shoes.

On Sep 9, 4:01 pm, "JY" <j...@cvd.co.uk> wrote:
> You've just re-invented the clog!
>
> > Bolt shoe heels to stretcher. Allow athlete heels to come up (if
> > needed) by not fastening the laces/velcro or by oversize shoes.

Yes, beat me to it with the clog, which is certainly what I used
between graduating from [tub + old school shoes + single leather ergo-
type strap] about 1958, through to long after I stopped racing with a
duff back in 1972. IME the only drawback of the clog was the slight
risk of the ball of one's sock sliding about on the wooden sole of the
clog .......... remedied by dipping [socks + toes] in river water, and
waving two fingers to any passing rat.

I felt more secure when I moved to shoes [or rather when my club did].
I'm with Chris about the laces - one per shoe, inelastic, secure
anchoring point on both shoe and bottom of stretcher, easily adjusted
if the umpire gets hissy and, if one goes missing, the coach can
usually be called to produce a replacement from his own boot.

Richard

On Sep 9, 4:39 pm, rdupa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 9, 4:01 pm, "JY" <j...@cvd.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > You've just re-invented the clog!
>
> > > Bolt shoe heels to stretcher. Allow athlete heels to come up (if
> > > needed) by not fastening the laces/velcro or by oversize shoes.
>
> Yes, beat me to it with the clog, which is certainly what I used
> between graduating from [tub + old school shoes + single leather ergo-
> type strap] about 1958, through to long after I stopped racing with a
> duff back in 1972. IME the only drawback of the clog was the slight
> risk of the ball of one's sock sliding about on the wooden sole of the
> clog .......... remedied by dipping [socks + toes] in river water, and
> waving two fingers to any passing rat.
>
> I felt more secure when I moved to shoes [or rather when my club did].
> I'm with Chris about the laces - one per shoe, inelastic, secure
> anchoring point on both shoe and bottom of stretcher, easily adjusted
> if the umpire gets hissy and, if one goes missing, the coach can
> usually be called to produce a replacement from his own boot.
>
> Richard

I'm in complete agreeance with the Shoe/Bootlace Method.
Easier to get adjusted and when worn can be easily replaced.
Though IME Umpiring, I have had a few notable crews come up to Control
Commission and when lifting the heels of the shoes, the knots have
come undone!!
Still not as bad as the top boat at a certain former Polytechnic that
presented its boat to me with no heel restraints at all....cue frantic
apologies and garnering of laces courtesy of their coach.

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT), "c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk"
<c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>A bugbear of mine too. The strap has holes nicely drilled but they are
>always factory fitted and supplied with the strap at the longest
>length which is fine (but only just) when delivered, but definitely
>not after use when the leather is stretched.

And virtually impossible to replace when it wears out. A very, very
poor design.

>A shoelace of sufficient robustness, well maintained and the correct
>length is pefectly adequate.

Carl's usual suggestion for a more robust approach than the usual nick
a shoe lace from the nearest pair of manky trainers is :

We recommend a double strand of 3.2mm/0.125" to 4mm diameter braided
nylon cord, looped through a secure fixing on the shoe (or thru 2
holes in the heel), both ends passed through a single, close-fitting
hole in the stretcher heel, then knotted at the ends in a thumb knot,
that knot hardened by heating it with a small flame, & then prevented
from sliding by bonding in place with Sikaflex or epoxy resin.

(Extract from
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/thread/46f28dbf1816cc5b/cfc4f0a7c38e4196?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=heel+restraint+cord#cfc4f0a7c38e4196)

Richard Packer wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT), "c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk"
> <c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> A bugbear of mine too. The strap has holes nicely drilled but they are
>> always factory fitted and supplied with the strap at the longest
>> length which is fine (but only just) when delivered, but definitely
>> not after use when the leather is stretched.
>
> And virtually impossible to replace when it wears out. A very, very
> poor design.
>
>> A shoelace of sufficient robustness, well maintained and the correct
>> length is pefectly adequate.
>
> Carl's usual suggestion for a more robust approach than the usual nick
> a shoe lace from the nearest pair of manky trainers is :
>
> We recommend a double strand of 3.2mm/0.125" to 4mm diameter braided
> nylon cord, looped through a secure fixing on the shoe (or thru 2
> holes in the heel), both ends passed through a single, close-fitting
> hole in the stretcher heel, then knotted at the ends in a thumb knot,
> that knot hardened by heating it with a small flame, & then prevented
> from sliding by bonding in place with Sikaflex or epoxy resin.
>
> (Extract from
> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/thread/46f28dbf1816cc5b/cfc4f0a7c38e4196?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=heel+restraint+cord#cfc4f0a7c38e4196)

Many thanks indeed, Richard. Much appreciated.

I must say I was shocked to hear these otherwise responsible guys all
advocating, in effect, any old shoelace. What were they thinking of?

What about wear - or do you only know it's worn when it breaks when most
needed?

What about strength - or are they happy that their lives & those of
others who take their advice may hang by mere threads?

What about permissible heel lift limits - or do they follow the old &
deadly dangerous ARA dictum that the heel lift even as far as the lower
shoe-fixing screws?

I guess every one of those correspondents understands & respects the
need for standards for design & performance in safety equipment, indeed
in engineering in general? So why do they treat this particular matter
- & note that the lack of heel restraints really has killed a number of
rowers - with such insouciance? Sure, heel restraints are simple. But
so is getting it wrong.

Returning to the OP:
If heel restraints are done properly there is nothing simpler, nor
cheaper, nor more effective for immediate release. The very simplicity
which, when merely bodged as so often it is, you seem to deride is also
its virtue. It is so cheap & easy to get it right!

It is only human folly that lets boat builders continue to send out
their finest products with loosely-tied shoe laces of arbitrary length
(if any) in place of a properly designed heel restraint that would
always save a life & will never fray or deteriorate. Similarly it is
confused priorities within clubs that they will cheerfully put up with
any scruffy semblance of a heel restraint, or none, rather than apply
the very simple and very permanent measure which, thanks to Richard's
encyclopaedic recall, you see at the end of his posting.

Now go do it, please. There really are no excuses.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

"Carl Douglas" <carl@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ga6g87$bb9$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Richard Packer wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT), "c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk"
>> <c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> A bugbear of mine too. The strap has holes nicely drilled but they are
>>> always factory fitted and supplied with the strap at the longest
>>> length which is fine (but only just) when delivered, but definitely
>>> not after use when the leather is stretched.
>>
>> And virtually impossible to replace when it wears out. A very, very
>> poor design.
>>
>>> A shoelace of sufficient robustness, well maintained and the correct
>>> length is pefectly adequate.
>>
>> Carl's usual suggestion for a more robust approach than the usual nick
>> a shoe lace from the nearest pair of manky trainers is :
>>
>> We recommend a double strand of 3.2mm/0.125" to 4mm diameter braided
>> nylon cord, looped through a secure fixing on the shoe (or thru 2
>> holes in the heel), both ends passed through a single, close-fitting
>> hole in the stretcher heel, then knotted at the ends in a thumb knot,
>> that knot hardened by heating it with a small flame, & then prevented
>> from sliding by bonding in place with Sikaflex or epoxy resin. (Extract
>> from
>> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/thread/46f28dbf1816cc5b/cfc4f0a7c38e4196?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=heel+restraint+cord#cfc4f0a7c38e4196)
>
> Many thanks indeed, Richard. Much appreciated.
>
> I must say I was shocked to hear these otherwise responsible guys all
> advocating, in effect, any old shoelace. What were they thinking of?
>
> What about wear - or do you only know it's worn when it breaks when most
> needed?
>

No, I said a sufficiently robust and well maintained shoe lace. And of
course you check it - don't we all - every time you get into a boat.

Christopher Anton wrote:
> "Carl Douglas" <carl@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ga6g87$bb9$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Richard Packer wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT), "c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk"
>>> <c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A bugbear of mine too. The strap has holes nicely drilled but they are
>>>> always factory fitted and supplied with the strap at the longest
>>>> length which is fine (but only just) when delivered, but definitely
>>>> not after use when the leather is stretched.
>>> And virtually impossible to replace when it wears out. A very, very
>>> poor design.
>>>
>>>> A shoelace of sufficient robustness, well maintained and the correct
>>>> length is pefectly adequate.
>>> Carl's usual suggestion for a more robust approach than the usual nick
>>> a shoe lace from the nearest pair of manky trainers is :
>>>
>>> We recommend a double strand of 3.2mm/0.125" to 4mm diameter braided
>>> nylon cord, looped through a secure fixing on the shoe (or thru 2
>>> holes in the heel), both ends passed through a single, close-fitting
>>> hole in the stretcher heel, then knotted at the ends in a thumb knot,
>>> that knot hardened by heating it with a small flame, & then prevented
>>> from sliding by bonding in place with Sikaflex or epoxy resin. (Extract
>>> from
>>> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/thread/46f28dbf1816cc5b/cfc4f0a7c38e4196?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=heel+restraint+cord#cfc4f0a7c38e4196)
>> Many thanks indeed, Richard. Much appreciated.
>>
>> I must say I was shocked to hear these otherwise responsible guys all
>> advocating, in effect, any old shoelace. What were they thinking of?
>>
>> What about wear - or do you only know it's worn when it breaks when most
>> needed?
>>
>
> No, I said a sufficiently robust and well maintained shoe lace. And of
> course you check it - don't we all - every time you get into a boat.
>
>

Just like you check the mountings of your seat belt, & every square
centimetre of every tyre, every time you get into a car? That's a
complete & proven non-starter.

No. Make & install the thing well enough that it will amply outlast the
shoe. Equipment safety is all about passive safety - it works when
needed & without the slightest intervention, & until then it withstands
_all_ normal daily use. And recognise without waffle that most humans
don't do daily maintenance & few rowers understand how heel restraints
should be installed, how they should function or what are the safe
limits in their design & installation.

Carl



:(
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 20:11:06 +0100, "Christopher Anton"
<c.anton@NOSPAM.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>No, I said a sufficiently robust and well maintained shoe lace. And of
>course you check it - don't we all - every time you get into a boat.

The problem is that while *some* shoelaces may well be up to the job
(I think a *new* pair of decent walking boot ones would probably be
fine), your average oarsman, if he or she can be bothered, really does
only take the nearest shoelace from the nearest abandoned pair of
moth-eaten trainers. You know it's true. I know it's true. We both
know it's not good enough. Getting hold of decent quality 4mm cord is
a doddle, it costs pennies [1], weighs nothing, and every coach or
boatman - preferably every single oarsman - should have some of this
handy material in their kit bag as a matter of routine.

[1] e.g 60p/metre at www.cotswoldoutdoor.com

The Carl-approved method is all well and good in a single or a boat
where the crew-members always row in the same seat and use the same
pair of shoes. Where it "fails" is when shoes have to be switched
around from footboard to footboard. It's a complete pain in the wotsit
to have to cut through heat-sealed nylon cord - it's much easier to
use shoe laces.

Maybe with changes in design over the past ten years it's now time to
revisit the cycling shoe/pedal clip interface for rowing shoes?



On Sep 9, 12:30 pm, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Anton wrote:
> > "Carl Douglas" <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:ga6g87$bb9$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> >> Richard Packer wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT), "c.an...@blueyonder.co.uk"
> >>> <c.an...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>> A bugbear of mine too. The strap has holes nicely drilled but they are
> >>>> always factory fitted and supplied with the strap at the longest
> >>>> length which is fine (but only just) when delivered, but definitely
> >>>> not after use when the leather is stretched.
> >>> And virtually impossible to replace when it wears out.  A very, very
> >>> poor design.
>
> >>>> A shoelace of sufficient robustness, well maintained and the correct
> >>>> length is pefectly adequate.
> >>> Carl's usual suggestion for a more robust approach than the usual nick
> >>> a shoe lace from the nearest pair of manky trainers is :
>
> >>> We recommend a double strand of 3.2mm/0.125" to 4mm diameter braided
> >>> nylon cord, looped through a secure fixing on the shoe (or thru 2
> >>> holes in the heel), both ends passed through a single, close-fitting
> >>> hole in the stretcher heel, then knotted at the ends in a thumb knot,
> >>> that knot hardened by heating it with a small flame, & then prevented
> >>> from sliding by bonding in place with Sikaflex or epoxy resin. (Extract
> >>> from
> >>>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/threa....)
> >> Many thanks indeed, Richard.  Much appreciated.
>
> >> I must say I was shocked to hear these otherwise responsible guys all
> >> advocating, in effect, any old shoelace.  What were they thinking of?
>
> >> What about wear - or do you only know it's worn when it breaks when most
> >> needed?
>
> > No, I said a sufficiently robust and well maintained shoe lace.  And of
> > course you check it - don't we all - every time you get into a boat.
>
> Just like you check the mountings of your seat belt, & every square
> centimetre of every tyre, every time you get into a car?  That's a
> complete & proven non-starter.
>
> No.  Make & install the thing well enough that it will amply outlast the
> shoe.  Equipment safety is all about passive safety - it works when
> needed & without the slightest intervention, & until then it withstands
> _all_ normal daily use.  And recognise without waffle that most humans
> don't do daily maintenance & few rowers understand how heel restraints
> should be installed, how they should function or what are the safe
> limits in their design & installation.
>
> Carl
>
> :(
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
>      Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find:    http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk  Tel:+44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
> URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)

RoCoach@gmail.com wrote:
> The Carl-approved method is all well and good in a single or a boat
> where the crew-members always row in the same seat and use the same
> pair of shoes. Where it "fails" is when shoes have to be switched
> around from footboard to footboard. It's a complete pain in the wotsit
> to have to cut through heat-sealed nylon cord - it's much easier to
> use shoe laces.
>
> Maybe with changes in design over the past ten years it's now time to
> revisit the cycling shoe/pedal clip interface for rowing shoes?
>

Intelligent stretcher design enables each rower to carry & interchange
their stretcher board, complete with mounted shoes with their heel
restraints intact, into any position in the boat. With ours, the shoes
are on identical boards, not on plates which attach to boards. I think
it's called design.

However, there is nothing to prevent manufacturers who cling to the
separate show-plate system from incorporating a fixed loop on the heel
of each stretcher & a carabiner clip to connect to it, fixed to the end
of a proper-length, proper-strength heel restraint.

Why is it that rowers are so keen to find reasons for clinging to
old-fashioned ways & argue blindly against doing things better? The
corollary of the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is another
one: "If never did work, best change how you do it".

There was a 30-min radio program last night on BBC R4 on the history of
CERN. Such a refreshing contrast to rowing's can't do attitudes to hear
former participants in CERN tell how in the early days ideas were
welcomed with open arms & a "Let's do it" philosophy. In rowing we
prefer to invent complex, bogus excuses for why inverted rowers who went
to race without heel restraints were "trapped by their oarlocks" - such
utter bollocks!

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

On Sep 9, 10:45 pm, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
> RoCo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The Carl-approved method is all well and good in a single or a boat
> > where the crew-members always row in the same seat and use the same
> > pair of shoes. Where it "fails" is when shoes have to be switched
> > around from footboard to footboard. It's a complete pain in the wotsit
> > to have to cut through heat-sealed nylon cord - it's much easier to
> > use shoe laces.
>
> > Maybe with changes in design over the past ten years it's now time to
> > revisit the cycling shoe/pedal clip interface for rowing shoes?
>
> Intelligent stretcher design enables each rower to carry & interchange
> their stretcher board, complete with mounted shoes with their heel
> restraints intact, into any position in the boat.  With ours, the shoes
> are on identical boards, not on plates which attach to boards.  I think
> it's called design.
>
> However, there is nothing to prevent manufacturers who cling to the
> separate show-plate system from incorporating a fixed loop on the heel
> of each stretcher & a carabiner clip to connect to it, fixed to the end
> of a proper-length, proper-strength heel restraint.
>

Indeed, and this would be entirely sensible. In fact I think one of
our newest Janouseks has clips, but it's the 90% of the boats in the
boathouse which are 4+ years old that are the concern, so we need a
good system for moving footplates around to retrofit. Does anyone know
of clips that are both strong enough and small enough? Otherwise, I
generally just go for tying the knot each time, although then you have
to trust users of the boat to be competent at tying knots; it doesn't
seem unreasonable, but expecting anything to be idiot-proof with
rowers is often foolish.

> Why is it that rowers are so keen to find reasons for clinging to
> old-fashioned ways & argue blindly against doing things better?  The
> corollary of the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is another
> one: "If never did work, best change how you do it".

Laziness and ignorance/thoughtlessness, presumably in some
combination.
>
> There was a 30-min radio program last night on BBC R4 on the history of
> CERN.  Such a refreshing contrast to rowing's can't do attitudes to hear
> former participants in CERN tell how in the early days ideas were
> welcomed with open arms & a "Let's do it" philosophy.  In rowing we
> prefer to invent complex, bogus excuses for why inverted rowers who went
> to race without heel restraints were "trapped by their oarlocks" - such
> utter bollocks!
>
> Cheers -
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
>      Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find:    http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk  Tel: +44(0)1932-570946  Fax: -563682
> URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)

On Sep 9, 5:55 am, cyd523 <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote:
> Any more advances in this field?
>
> We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...

Indeed. Clogs!

- Paul Smith

What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...

Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
restraints eventually.

On 10 Sep, 12:17, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>
> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
> restraints eventually.

Cycling shoes are perfectly acceptable alternative and as you say
don't have the immense amount of faff involved when you want to change
shoes for someone with unnaturally large feet.

On Sep 10, 4:17 am, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>
> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
> restraints eventually.



Not to mention those shoes where the D rings have corroded to barely
more than some kind of plastic/aluminium powder...

RoCoach@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 10, 4:17 am, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
>> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
>> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
>> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>>
>> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
>> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
>> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
>> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
>> restraints eventually.
>
>
>
> Not to mention those shoes where the D rings have corroded to barely
> more than some kind of plastic/aluminium powder...


I agree completely.

Again, this is the consequence of there being no performance standard.
And that is a serious failure by the various NGBs & by FISA.

As we have seen & as this correspondence has demonstrated, where
anything goes & no mandatory standards are provided, a life-saving
system may fall victim to incomprehension, abuse or contempt.

If you don't trust the tatty D-ring, then drill 2-off 5mm holes through
the shoe heel of the sole at the heel & pass the 3.2mm or 4mm cord in &
out through these. That form of attachment to the shoe will not break &
will not cause wear to the cord.

Again, it is very simple to do. Just a matter of common sense.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

I believe cycling shoe arrangement was used in America a while back by
"Power 10"

Personally I dont see need for heel restraints...better not to tie
laces up so feet can slip in and out. I can see no reason to tie feet
in. If relaxed and not pulling yourself up the slide against the shoes
then there should be no need

Donal

On 10 Sep, 16:04, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote:
> RoCo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 4:17 am, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
> >> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
> >> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
> >> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>
> >> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
> >> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
> >> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
> >> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
> >> restraints eventually.
>
> > Not to mention those shoes where the D rings have corroded to barely
> > more than some kind of plastic/aluminium powder...
>
> I agree completely.
>
> Again, this is the consequence of there being no performance standard.
> And that is a serious failure by the various NGBs & by FISA.
>
> As we have seen & as this correspondence has demonstrated, where
> anything goes & no mandatory standards are provided, a life-saving
> system may fall victim to incomprehension, abuse or contempt.
>
> If you don't trust the tatty D-ring, then drill 2-off 5mm holes through
> the shoe heel of the sole at the heel & pass the 3.2mm or 4mm cord in &
> out through these.  That form of attachment to the shoe will not break &
> will not cause wear to the cord.
>
> Again, it is very simple to do.  Just a matter of common sense.
>
> Cheers -
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
>      Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find:    http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk  Tel: +44(0)1932-570946  Fax: -563682
> URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On Sep 10, 4:19 pm, "donal.ca...@gmail.com" <donal.ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I believe cycling shoe arrangement was used in America a while back by
> "Power 10"
>
> Personally I dont see need for heel restraints...better not to tie
> laces up so feet can slip in and out. I can see no reason to tie feet
> in. If relaxed and not pulling yourself up the slide against the shoes
> then there should be no need
>
> Donal
>
True but that would also assume some rowing technique which may be
beyond the noddy novices, i follow my friend Dick Findlay and tend to
scull feet out, gates open eyes closed with some square blades to make
it fun !

On 10 Sep, 16:52, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 10, 4:19 pm, "donal.ca...@gmail.com" <donal.ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:> I believe cycling shoe arrangement was used in America a while back by
> > "Power 10"
>
> > Personally I dont see need for heel restraints...better not to tie
> > laces up so feet can slip in and out. I can see no reason to tie feet
> > in. If relaxed and not pulling yourself up the slide against the shoes
> > then there should be no need
>
> > Donal
>
> True but that would also assume some rowing technique which may be
> beyond the noddy novices, i follow my friend Dick Findlay and tend to
> scull feet out, gates open eyes closed with some square blades to make
> it fun !

Its better to nip a fault in the bud rather than let someone learn it
and then make them learn how not to do it.
So with ergos get everyone to use them feet out until they are
reasonably experienced then allow them to tie
feet in. Never tie the feet in in a boat.....

On Sep 10, 12:17 pm, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>
> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
> restraints eventually.

I agree an SPD-style system would be a good idea, but given there is
nowhere near as much money in rowing as cycling I wonder who will
develop it.

The "twist-out" ability of SPD-style pedals would be extremely useful.
Heel restraints on rowing shoes as we know them will only release the
foot in one direction. The ability to twist out as well would
certainly have saved considerable pain and inconvenience (!!) to
someone I know.

Many years ago a friend of mine was doing a piece in a 2x and slammed
into the Black Buoy at Putney, overturning the boat. Her partner
bobbed straight up, but my friend didn't ... and didn't ... and
didn't. Extremely concerned at no sign of my friend, fearing she was
in danger of drowning, her partner tipped the boat to one side to help
bring her mouth to the surface. Except she didn't realise she was
tipping the wrong way, taking my friend's mouth further down.

This was a national squad boat, and my friend is extremely strong, and
she really was now about to drown, so she instinctively used all her
strength to twist her body so that her face could get above water.
Something had to give, and that something was her knee. She spent
several months in hospital (fully recovered happily).

I don't know the state of the heel restraints, but I bet that a
properly-designed SPD-style system would have allowed the shoe to
release before her knee joint. I'm just off to be sick again...

Richard,

I can recount one first hand experience that makes me an absolute believer
in Carl's insistence on proper heel restraints.

Last Spring (2007) while I was waiting for my boat a friend very generously
lent me his old Hudson. The heel restraints were tied down with shoe laces.
I confess that at the time I thought nothing of it.

More than once I took that Hudson into some pretty rough water just to get
an idea of how a flat water racing single might fare.

On one of these trips I returned to the dock, pulled on the drawstring to
open my shoes just as I had always done, and started to climb out of the
shell. My left foot slipped out of the shoe with ease. My right foot,
however, seemed stuck. I pulled harder, but it still didn't come loose. So I
pulled even harder, really hard, and it was still stuck.

I couldn't imagine what it was caught on. I sat back on my seat and stared
down at my feet. Everything seemed in place.

I pulled again and my foot still wouldn't slip out of the shoe. Something
was clearly wrong. But what?

And that's when I noticed that the heel restraint had broken.

Once I realized what had happened, all that was involved to remove my foot
was to reach down and finish untying the shoe. I did it easily, and freely
concede that I could even done it easily inverted and under water.

Nevertheless, the broken heel restraint got me to thinking about what might
have happened had I capsized in the water I had been in a half hour before.

Would I have had the presence of mind to have untied my shoe as I did at the
dock?

Or would I have panicked when my foot wouldn't come loose?

When it comes to safety, isn't it always better to err on the side of
caution? I think so.

One last comment on Carl's heel restraints. I can tell you, and again this
is from first hand experience, they are everything Carl says they are. It
is almost certain they will far outlast the pair of shoes they tie down.

Cordially,

Charles

Carl Douglas schrieb:
> However, there is nothing to prevent manufacturers who cling to the
> separate show-plate system from incorporating a fixed loop on the heel
> of each stretcher & a carabiner clip to connect to it, fixed to the end
> of a proper-length, proper-strength heel restraint.

BBG has something. Have a look here:
http://www.bbg-bootsbau.de/images/details/junior/stemmbrett.jpg

It is a small plastic part and seems to be quite tough. No problems with
it in daily use.

Still I prefer Carl's version of swapping the whole footboard with shoes
on it.
Top reasons:
- Only 2 wingnuts to open.
- It's not trivial to drill the holes for new shoes on an existing
board, so better buy the whole package, properly aligned.

On 9 Sep, 13:55, cyd523 <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote:
> Any more advances in this field?
>
> We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...

Found a couple of pairs of shoes recently with special invisible heel
restraints.

Does this count as an advance?

On Sep 11, 11:48 am, Andrew <ajweav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 9 Sep, 13:55, cyd523 <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> > Any more advances in this field?
>
> > We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...
>
> Found a couple of pairs of shoes recently with special invisible heel
> restraints.
>
> Does this count as an advance?

Go test them and, if you can, let us know how well they work...

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:48:41 -0700 (PDT), Andrew
<ajweaver1@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 9 Sep, 13:55, cyd523 <clive.pen...@virgin.net> wrote:
>> Any more advances in this field?
>>
>> We must be able to improve on a piece of shoe string...
>
>Found a couple of pairs of shoes recently with special invisible heel
>restraints.
>
>Does this count as an advance?

Plenty more invisible and, um, "unusual" heel restraints here -
http://www.packer.dsl.pipex.com/rowing/safety/heelrestraints.html

>Does anyone know of clips that are both strong enough and small enough?

I jointly own a boat with someone who has much bigger feet. We have our own
shoes on a plate. The nylon laces are permanently tied and have a small
aluminium spring clip I purchased from Homebase. (UK 'do it yourself'
store.) Takes about ten seconds to clip on the D ring at the back of the
shoes. I've seen similar clips in other do it yourself stores.



In my experience upward of 90% of heal restraints, (including those passing
inspection at Regattas,) are utterly useless, as they are set two long. In
my view if you can't take your feet out without loosening the laces or
Velcro and without the use of hands the restraint is too long. People have
an irrational fear the restraint will be too short and set it too long as a
result.

"MagnusBurbanks" <magnusb@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:0c054a6d-ff36-44cd-b21f-bc979b35acc6@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 10, 12:17 pm, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>
> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
> restraints eventually.

I agree an SPD-style system would be a good idea, but given there is
nowhere near as much money in rowing as cycling I wonder who will
develop it.

The "twist-out" ability of SPD-style pedals would be extremely useful.
Heel restraints on rowing shoes as we know them will only release the
foot in one direction. The ability to twist out as well would
certainly have saved considerable pain and inconvenience (!!) to
someone I know.

Many years ago a friend of mine was doing a piece in a 2x and slammed
into the Black Buoy at Putney, overturning the boat. Her partner
bobbed straight up, but my friend didn't ... and didn't ... and
didn't. Extremely concerned at no sign of my friend, fearing she was
in danger of drowning, her partner tipped the boat to one side to help
bring her mouth to the surface. Except she didn't realise she was
tipping the wrong way, taking my friend's mouth further down.

This was a national squad boat, and my friend is extremely strong, and
she really was now about to drown, so she instinctively used all her
strength to twist her body so that her face could get above water.
Something had to give, and that something was her knee. She spent
several months in hospital (fully recovered happily).

I don't know the state of the heel restraints, but I bet that a
properly-designed SPD-style system would have allowed the shoe to
release before her knee joint. I'm just off to be sick again...


An SPD-style system has been developed in the UK by Krew Klips but their
web-site is down... or perhaps they are.

http://www.krewklips.co.uk/

--

John Mulholland

John Mulholland wrote:
> "MagnusBurbanks" <magnusb@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:0c054a6d-ff36-44cd-b21f-bc979b35acc6@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 10, 12:17 pm, Fordmeister <Fordmeiste...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> What about SPD clips from cycling ? They are fitted to the ball of the
>> foot, allow the heel to flex and in emergency will unclip ? Could be a
>> good way to allow clubs to have a pair of shoes for each rower as
>> opposed to having lots of shoes in each boat ...
>>
>> Whilst writing this I am also thinking the tension may not be quite
>> right but that sort of system has to be a way forward. In my
>> experience with the Adidas shoes supplied in Empachers the weak spot
>> is the D ring at the back of the shoe will cut through most heel
>> restraints eventually.
>
> I agree an SPD-style system would be a good idea, but given there is
> nowhere near as much money in rowing as cycling I wonder who will
> develop it.
>
> The "twist-out" ability of SPD-style pedals would be extremely useful.
> Heel restraints on rowing shoes as we know them will only release the
> foot in one direction. The ability to twist out as well would
> certainly have saved considerable pain and inconvenience (!!) to
> someone I know.
>
> Many years ago a friend of mine was doing a piece in a 2x and slammed
> into the Black Buoy at Putney, overturning the boat. Her partner
> bobbed straight up, but my friend didn't ... and didn't ... and
> didn't. Extremely concerned at no sign of my friend, fearing she was
> in danger of drowning, her partner tipped the boat to one side to help
> bring her mouth to the surface. Except she didn't realise she was
> tipping the wrong way, taking my friend's mouth further down.
>
> This was a national squad boat, and my friend is extremely strong, and
> she really was now about to drown, so she instinctively used all her
> strength to twist her body so that her face could get above water.
> Something had to give, and that something was her knee. She spent
> several months in hospital (fully recovered happily).
>
> I don't know the state of the heel restraints, but I bet that a
> properly-designed SPD-style system would have allowed the shoe to
> release before her knee joint. I'm just off to be sick again...
>
>
> An SPD-style system has been developed in the UK by Krew Klips but their
> web-site is down... or perhaps they are.
>
> http://www.krewklips.co.uk/
>

First some questions:

1. This squad 2x - a) were there any heel restraints &, if so, b) were
they properly installed?
2. Please explain by what mechanism a foot can be trapped in teh boat if
the heel restraint is of the correct length (no more than 50mm/2") 7
properly installed.

Rowing (see that 2006 saga of the inverted Germans at Dorney) abounds
with inconceivably implausible so-called explanations being manufactured
to explain away why things have gone wrong, some of them pure hokum to
cover up for brain cells which failed to function well in a flap. The
only way for a foot, held down in the bottom of the boat, to leave that
boat is for the heel to move, relatively-speaking, upwards. Not
forwards. Nor aft-wards. Not sideways. Only if the heel is unable to
detach from within the shoe's heel can the rower's foot be trapped. If
the heel of the shoe is properly restrained (so that the shoe cannot
curl upwards) & the rower's heel pulls against that restraint, then the
foot cannot be trapped.

Of course a rower who's had a nasty experience, & who may have little
understanding of, or scant prior regard for, the need for properly
installed heel restraints may prefer any sort of explanation which can
put blame on those restraints. And, if their knee has been buggered in
their struggle to escape, that will only increase their bias. But, as
of now, I've found not a single instance in which properly installed
heel restraints have failed to disengage a rower's feet. Meanwhile we
have seen a plethora of totally inadequate heel restraints in use (&
vigorously defended even here in this thread) at every level of this sport.

It is in that jaundiced light that we should view the desires expressed
here to dump heel restraints for something different. But if something
is easy to install properly, & then has a 100% successful performance
record, & is only let down when ineptly installed &/or maintened, then
why not do the dead easy thing & ensure that all heel restraints are
properly installed?

Now I'll refer to Richard packer's excellent website:
http://www.packer.dsl.pipex.com/rowing/safety/heelrestraints.html
in particular to his excerpts from the ARA's Water Safety Code:-
* WSC section 1.11.2 - "All boats where “fitted” shoes are employed,
must have effective heel restraints. These must be properly adjusted and
in working order."
* Guidance Notes section 2.6.1.2 - "Before any outing is undertaken,
equipment should be checked to ensure that it is in safe condition and
in working order."
* ... and specifically paragraph e) - "Check that heel restraints
are secure and that restraints are adequate and effective, i.e., heels
are positively restrained not to rise above the fixed point of the shoe."

Nowhere does that stuff say what constitutes "adequate", "secure" or
"safe condition".

Note too the utter crap about: "heels are positively restrained not to
rise above the fixed point of the shoe", which demonstrates only the
fundamental technical ignorance of its author. That definition will
ensure that the shoe rolls up so far on a close-fitting foot as to
irrevocably entrap it by the resulting pressure at the heel jamming the
foot up into the shoe.

With vacuous, ill-informed & potentially fatal _official_ advice like
that, & with that advice being wholly devoid of illustration or means of
testing functionality, small wonder that heel restraints are held in
such low regard by some here. But if they do scorn heel restraints,
that shows that they too have failed to stop & think how & why they can
function so well when properly installed & how they should be properly
installed.

Unfortunately the KrewKlips website is defunct. That's despite Robin's
serious efforts to promote the system (essentially SPD) which did
genuinely work (as shown in the real-life tests that he & I performed &
on which I reported here on RSR). You can take a horse to water ....

I must conclude, therefore, that rowers are inherently prone to cling to
daft arguments against, & meanwhile neglect the proper installation of,
almost any competent safety device. After all, we've all kidded
ourselves that, "It'll never happen to me". Ooops!

One last gem in Richard's selection from that WSC:
* paragraph h) - "Where “shoes” are fitted in the boat, check that
the laces are adequate for their purpose. Check also, when tied, that
they are not too tight, thereby immobilising the feet. Check also the
condition of shoes and their fixing. Where “Velcro” straps are fitted,
check for wear and replace regularly."

So why is the state of Velcro shoe fasteners, or laces, even remotely
part of safety advice? Over-tightening is certainly a menace, but that
is not defined in that woolly-minded passage. The essential point,
which the author missed, is that the lack of laces or of other means of
entrapping feet in shoes can only _assist_ a quick release. Thus it is
not a safety hazard & has no place in that context.

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Carl,

Have I understood you correctly?

You write that the correct length for a heel restraint is no more than
50mm/2".

Rebecca asked me at dinner, after she had rowed the Mary Elizabeth two
weekends ago, if my ankles were very flexible.

"Why do you ask that?" I asked.

"Well, because your heel restraints seem awfully short. They just wouldn't
let me get up on my toes at the catch."

"I'm sorry, but I've never noticed," was all I could think of saying.

Then I remembered that I had raised the footstretchers when I first set up
the rigging.

"Could that be it?" I asked.

So now I get to ask you, too.

Cordially,

Charles

Charles Carroll wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Have I understood you correctly?
>
> You write that the correct length for a heel restraint is no more than
> 50mm/2".
>
> Rebecca asked me at dinner, after she had rowed the Mary Elizabeth two
> weekends ago, if my ankles were very flexible.
>
> "Why do you ask that?" I asked.
>
> "Well, because your heel restraints seem awfully short. They just
> wouldn't let me get up on my toes at the catch."
>
> "I'm sorry, but I've never noticed," was all I could think of saying.
>
> Then I remembered that I had raised the footstretchers when I first set
> up the rigging.
>
> "Could that be it?" I asked.
>
> So now I get to ask you, too.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Charles


Why didn't Rebecca adjust the stretcher's rake angle? If the stretcher
was too steep for her, then she'd have found the heel restraints
tugging. That's why we provide rake adjustment - contrary to what
didactic types would have you believe, we're all different & there's no
unique, perfect rake angle.

Because we fix the shoes to the stretcher board, with the heel
restraints attached to the self-same board, raising your feet means
raising the whole board WRT the stretcher bar & thus cannot alter the
heel restraint length or heel-lift range.

Next point: what does Rebecca mean by "up on my toes at the catch".
Like her, I certainly favour the non-flat-footed use of the stretcher,
but I didn't think you had to be "en pointe" to get a good drive. At
the finish I can see sense in being able to lift the heels (us
short-legged types need all the length we can get!). Even so, I've
never seen a 50mm/2" restraint length limit foot movement.

So I'm puzzled & will await clarification from you &/or Rebecca.

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Carl,

Any clarification is going to have to come from Rebecca. I've never felt any
heel restraint at the catch. If I had, it's a pretty safe bet you would have
heard of it a long time ago.

I concede that I do have the foot stretcher raised high, and I suspect its
rake is a bit steeper than most.

When I take the catch I think of myself sitting on a floor with my feet
pressed up against a wall and a rope attached to the wall slightly over and
in front of my feet. Rightly or wrongly I think of my job as trying to tug
on the rope and pull my butt up off the floor and just hang off the wall.

Cordially,

Charles

Charles Carroll wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Any clarification is going to have to come from Rebecca. I've never felt
> any heel restraint at the catch. If I had, it's a pretty safe bet you
> would have heard of it a long time ago.
>
> I concede that I do have the foot stretcher raised high, and I suspect
> its rake is a bit steeper than most.
>
> When I take the catch I think of myself sitting on a floor with my feet
> pressed up against a wall and a rope attached to the wall slightly over
> and in front of my feet. Rightly or wrongly I think of my job as trying
> to tug on the rope and pull my butt up off the floor and just hang off
> the wall.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Charles

Sounds good to me :)

Carl

PS While we natter here about rowing, everyone who follows the news
from across the Carribean & Gulf of Mexico realises the swathe of human
misery being wrought by those hurricanes - on the islands & on the
mainland. I can find no good way to express this, but hope those
affected who might read this stuff & wonder about us burbling on about
our sport while they are in such strife will understand that we aren't
being frivolous & that, behind the badinage here, folk really do care.
That's a fumbling, messy way to say it, but in view of the extreme level
of disaster it may be that something needed saying?
C
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

Carl asked ...

> 1. This squad 2x - a) were there any heel restraints &, if so, b) were
> they properly installed?
> 2. Please explain by what mechanism a foot can be trapped in teh boat if
> the heel restraint is of the correct length (no more than 50mm/2") 7
> properly installed.

1. a) The incident took place around 1990, I think. I have no idea
whether there were heel restraints, but I think it was an ARA boat so
it is probably safe to assume they were all present and correct. For
the exact circumstances and causes I guess one should go to the ARA's
incident log and look it up.
2. Can't answer that one I'm afraid - all I can say is that it
happened as I described.

Cheers, Magnus

On Sep 15, 12:00 pm, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
> Carl asked ...
>
> > 1.  This squad 2x - a) were there any heel restraints &, if so, b) were
> > they properly installed?
> > 2. Please explain by what mechanism a foot can be trapped in teh boat if
> > the heel restraint is of the correct length (no more than 50mm/2") 7
> > properly installed.
>
> 1. a) The incident took place around 1990, I think. I have no idea
> whether there were heel restraints, but I think it was an ARA boat so
> it is probably safe to assume they were all present and correct. For
> the exact circumstances and causes I guess one should go to the ARA's
> incident log and look it up.
> 2. Can't answer that one I'm afraid - all I can say is that it
> happened as I described.
>
> Cheers, Magnus

btw irony intended

MagnusBurbanks wrote:
> Carl asked ...
>
>> 1. This squad 2x - a) were there any heel restraints &, if so, b) were
>> they properly installed?
>> 2. Please explain by what mechanism a foot can be trapped in teh boat if
>> the heel restraint is of the correct length (no more than 50mm/2") 7
>> properly installed.
>
> 1. a) The incident took place around 1990, I think. I have no idea
> whether there were heel restraints, but I think it was an ARA boat so
> it is probably safe to assume they were all present and correct.

I'm afraid I would never make such an assumption. Remember the deadly
ARA WSC advice: that it's OK for the heel to rise as far as the lowest
fixing bolt - a perfect prescription for foot-trapping.

For
> the exact circumstances and causes I guess one should go to the ARA's
> incident log and look it up.

Errr? Where can one see this incident log? Or the log of all the
incidents reported to the ARA.

> 2. Can't answer that one I'm afraid - all I can say is that it
> happened as I described.
>
> Cheers, Magnus

I understand that, just as I understand the sheer panic of being trapped
head-down in a boat.

I was first alerted to the trapped heel problem by a guy who ordered a
new boat from us in '75. In his old boat he'd be run into & rolled over
by a river launch, & trapped by his shoes. He knew just how lucky he'd
been to escape: he said he'd survived only because he was strong enough
(built like an ox) & mad enough at the situation to kick & struggle hard
enough to destroy his stretcher. Someone built less robustly would have
failed

Now translate that same predicament to the case you mentioned. I'd
surmise that that girl did not succeed in breaking her stretcher, but
did succeed in damaging her leg &, fortunately, had someone else there
to help save them.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

On 15 Sep, 12:00, MagnusBurbanks <magn...@f2s.com> wrote:
> Carl asked ...
>
> > 1.  This squad 2x - a) were there any heel restraints &, if so, b) were
> > they properly installed?
> > 2. Please explain by what mechanism a foot can be trapped in teh boat if
> > the heel restraint is of the correct length (no more than 50mm/2") 7
> > properly installed.
>
> 1. a) The incident took place around 1990, I think. I have no idea
> whether there were heel restraints, but I think it was an ARA boat so
> it is probably safe to assume they were all present and correct. For
> the exact circumstances and causes I guess one should go to the ARA's
> incident log and look it up.
> 2. Can't answer that one I'm afraid - all I can say is that it
> happened as I described.
>
> Cheers, Magnus

I've been told the same story by a GB coach (I'm assuming it is the
same story, given there can't be many involving the Tideway, and
ripped knee joints, *shudder*) and he gave me the impression that the
heel restraints were missing.

Sarah

We use nylon (non-elastic) cord from climbing shops for our heel
restraint cords. It is very tough, extremely strong and available in a
wide range of bright colours. Do sear the ends though to seal them, as
otherwise it unravels.

A word about a quick release system. We tried, about 5 years ago to
develop some interest in this field by developing a quick release
system. As there is no real load on it during normal use, the system
does not have to be as complicated or strong as a cycle SPD system.
The idea we came up with involved a slot that a peg mounted on the
shoe slid into, with a restraining spring to hold it in place.
Releasing just involved sliding the shoe up, or twisting it with
enough force to move the spring. The system was lightweight and
doesn't change the foot/stretcher positioning, so it could easily be
retrofitted to existing boats. We thought that the shoe manufacturers
might be interested, but the market is so small, that they can barely
justify making rowing shoes at all, so the idea foundered.

Interestingly though, there are caveats in the FISA and ARA code that
allow for quick release shoes particularly stating that in their case,
heel restraints should not be used.

Anatole

P.s. The Janousek clips are a nice idea, but a complete pain. They are
not very strong (for club use) and get can get pressed onto the hull
of the boat by the heel in smaller volume boats, damaging the shell
inside.

On 18 Sep, 09:04, "AnatoleBe...@googlemail.com"
<anatolebe...@abdm.co.uk> wrote:
> We use nylon (non-elastic) cord from climbing shops for our heel
> restraint cords. It is very tough, extremely strong and available in a
> wide range of bright colours. Do sear the ends though to seal them, as
> otherwise it unravels.
>
> A word about a quick release system. We tried, about 5 years ago to
> develop some interest in this field by developing a quick release
> system. As there is no real load on it during normal use, the system
> does not have to be as complicated or strong as a cycle SPD system.
> The idea we came up with involved a slot that a peg mounted on the
> shoe slid into, with a restraining spring to hold it in place.
> Releasing just involved sliding the shoe up, or twisting it with
> enough force to move the spring. The system was lightweight and
> doesn't change the foot/stretcher positioning, so it could easily be
> retrofitted to existing boats. We thought that the shoe manufacturers
> might be interested, but the market is so small, that they can barely
> justify making rowing shoes at all, so the idea foundered.
>
> Interestingly though, there are caveats in the FISA and ARA code that
> allow for quick release shoes particularly stating that in their case,
> heel restraints should not be used.
>
> Anatole
>
> P.s. The Janousek clips are a nice idea, but a complete pain. They are
> not very strong (for club use) and get can get pressed onto the hull
> of the boat by the heel in smaller volume boats, damaging the shell
> inside.

Might it be possible to develop a clip-on mounting for ordinary
trainers. The mounting would be a flexible plate with a toe cap and
heel cup to hold the trainer (a bit like on C2s), and would be
attached to the stretcher via some kind of clip near the balls of the
feet (clips wouldn't need to be too strong. Forces involved are not
that great). In the event of capsize, the clips give way and the whole
mounting comes free with the trainer.

Pros:
- no need to store trainers in the boat
- your own trainers are the right size and won't have had someone
else's sweaty feet in them.
- on reaching the bank, you'll be properly shod to get back to base if
necessary.

Cons:
- I don't know what form the clips would take. They are the key to the
thing working.
- You may lose a mounting on capsizing, so you'll need some spares.

Just an idea
Kit

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:04:41 -0700 (PDT),
"AnatoleBeams@googlemail.com" <anatolebeams@abdm.co.uk> wrote:

>Interestingly though, there are caveats in the FISA and ARA code that
>allow for quick release shoes particularly stating that in their case,
>heel restraints should not be used.

Which caveats would these be then? I can't find anything in the ARA
or FISA rules that explicitly refers to quick release shoes.

"Richard Packer" <usenet@rjSURNAME.org.yookay> wrote in message
news:lhk5d45gj4rme9nms4stbupopopsarln4k@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:04:41 -0700 (PDT),
> "AnatoleBeams@googlemail.com" <anatolebeams@abdm.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Interestingly though, there are caveats in the FISA and ARA code that
>>allow for quick release shoes particularly stating that in their case,
>>heel restraints should not be used.
>
> Which caveats would these be then? I can't find anything in the ARA
> or FISA rules that explicitly refers to quick release shoes.

The advice issued by the ARA was at
http://www.ara-rowing.org/Asp/uploadedFiles/File/Safety_Flexi%20Clogs_Modifications.pdf
(but that page is apparently no longer available).
See my message here on 16.11.06 (http://preview.tinyurl.com/4mexpg)
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/