I don't feel he earned it.

"Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>I don't feel he earned it.

But he was the best New York Knick in recent memory. I tend to agree with
you, if he were spent most of his career on another team, he might not be
there. But NY is such a media center that some borderline players get in.
It is hard to reconcile Ewing in the Hall with Dennis Johnson not, though.

"Matadder" <matadder@aol.com> wrote in message
news:i6KdnYt9Av66f1_VnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>I don't feel he earned it.
>
> But he was the best New York Knick in recent memory. I tend to agree with
> you, if he were spent most of his career on another team, he might not be
> there. But NY is such a media center that some borderline players get in.
> It is hard to reconcile Ewing in the Hall with Dennis Johnson not, though.

he was more potential and less delivered than any 7 footer ever.

On Sep 6, 8:48 pm, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Matadder" <matad...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:i6KdnYt9Av66f1_VnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> > "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
> >>I don't feel he earned it.
>
> > But he was the best New York Knick in recent memory.  I tend to agreewith
> > you, if he were spent most of his career on another team, he might not be
> > there.  But NY is such a media center that some borderline players get in.
> > It is hard to reconcile Ewing in the Hall with Dennis Johnson not, though.
>
>  he was more potential and less delivered than any 7 footer ever.

I think he deserved it b/c getting 20,000 pts and 10,000 rebounds
are the kinds of career milestones that qualify someone as an elite
player for a long time. That said, when watching his actual game he
always came off more as a complimentary rather than starring player,
so I see your point.

On Sep 6, 12:07 pm, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> I don't feel he earned it.

As a Ewing hater, I have to disagree with you. I think Ewing is one
of the biggest dickheads ever, but he belongs in the hall as the
unquestioned leader of a playoff team year in and year out, a
tremendous scorer (selfish yes, but a scorer) and good rebounder and
defender for a very long career. He was one of the premier centers of
the 80s and 90s.

Rizzo

"Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:31e23309-58e6-40e2-8c13-3c9d72c4522f@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 6, 12:07 pm, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I don't feel he earned it.
>
> As a Ewing hater, I have to disagree with you. I think Ewing is one
> of the biggest dickheads ever, but he belongs in the hall as the
> unquestioned leader of a playoff team year in and year out, a
> tremendous scorer (selfish yes, but a scorer) and good rebounder and
> defender for a very long career. He was one of the premier centers of
> the 80s and 90s.
>
> Rizzo

i worked with ewings next door neighbor from when he grew up in cambridge.
he said this kid who was his neighbor was going to be great.
and he also said he was a damn nice kid and had nothing but praise for him
as a person.
this was when he was just heading to georgetown.

On Sep 7, 5:38 pm, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Frank Rizzo" <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:31e23309-58e6-40e2-8c13-3c9d72c4522f@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Sep 6, 12:07 pm, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> I don't feel he earned it.
>
> > As a Ewing hater, I have to disagree with you. I think Ewing is one
> > of the biggest dickheads ever, but he belongs in the hall as the
> > unquestioned leader of a playoff team year in and year out, a
> > tremendous scorer (selfish yes, but a scorer) and good rebounder and
> > defender for a very long career. He was one of the premier centers of
> > the 80s and 90s.
>
> > Rizzo
>
> i worked with ewings next door neighbor from when he grew up in cambridge.
> he said this kid who was his neighbor was going to be great.
> and he also said he was a damn nice kid and had nothing but praise for him
> as a person.
> this was when he was just heading to georgetown.

I had heard that too at that time (he's a year older than me), but he
appears to have let it all go to his head and turned into a dick head.

"Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>I don't feel he earned it.

Disagree.

He earned all of it.

First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout his
career. So he played bigger.

Second, he put up the numbers and never, ever took a game, quarter, minute
or play off.

Third, the progress in his game from HS to the pros was ludricrous. He was
really, really raw as a teenager and while his game may never pass for being
"polished", he was quite effective.

Fourth, he was never a prima donna. His job was to play and he did whatever
his coaches asked of him.

On Sep 8, 9:37 pm, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
> >I don't feel he earned it.
>
> Disagree.
>
> He earned all of it.
>
> First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout his
> career. So he played bigger.
>

I agree he earned it, but he was 7'0 not 6'9". Look at game films of
him next to other players.


> Second, he put up the numbers and never, ever took a game, quarter, minute
> or play off.
>
> Third, the progress in his game from HS to the pros was ludricrous. He was
> really, really raw as a teenager and while his game may never pass for being
> "polished", he was quite effective.

Key words in that paragraph are "NEVER PASS"....

>
> Fourth, he was never a prima donna. His job was to play and he did whatever
> his coaches asked of him.

That is bullshit. Ask Don Nelson about that one. He asked to
introduce SOME, not all, SOME plays that didn't include Ewing. Ewing
pouted and got Nellie fired.

Don Nelson always finds a way to play a good hoops game

AP, DALLAS, TEXAS
Thursday, Dec 18, 2003, Page 20

Whatever teams and players he's coached, Don Nelson has always
adapted.

Lacking a true point guard in Milwaukee, he came up with the "point
forward" position. With no big man in Golden State, he went small and
won with the exciting "Run TMC" combination.

Dallas had nothing going for it when he took over. So Nelson got rid
of everyone but Michael Finley, gambled on unproven players Steve Nash
and Dirk Nowitzki and nearly wound up the NBA Finals last season.

Innovator, risk-taker and a one-time wearer of the fish tie, Nelson is
all that.

He's also the second-winningest coach in NBA history, having passed
Pat Riley on Monday night, when the Mavericks beat the Toronto Raptors
111-94.

"I can't say it's not special, but it doesn't mean that much to me at
this moment. Maybe when I get old," the 63-year-old Nelson said,
laughing.

The 1,111th victory of his 26-year career came in his 3,000th NBA game
as a player or coach.

To appreciate the feat, consider that it would take 22 seasons of 50
wins just to come close. Nelson's top assistant Del Harris won 556
games over his 13-year career and would be just one in front of Nelson
if he doubled his win total.

"They're all just numbers," Nelson said Tuesday. "I don't know what
numbers mean any more. It's winning your next game that's really only
important."

His next game is in Boston, where the retired No. 19 hanging from the
rafters honors his playing career.

Nelson spent 11 of his 14 seasons with the Celtics, excelling as a
sixth man on five championship teams. He even hit the shot that won
the 1969 title.

He went from playing to being an assistant with the Bucks. Eighteen
games later, he became the head coach and soon became GM, too.

Known mostly for wide-open offenses and a fun-loving personality,
Nelson was once considered a defensive guy. In fact, Nellie -- as he's
widely known -- was the first to use the Hack-a-Shaq defense,
prompting O'Neal to call him "a clown" after one particularly abusive
outing.

O'Neal was growling again Friday night when the Mavericks sent him to
line 10 times in the final quarter of a victory over the Lakers in Los
Angeles. O'Neal missed seven, helping Dallas end a 26-game losing
streak there.

"He's a Hall of Fame coach and it's great to play for him," said Nash,
who has gone from third-stringer in Phoenix to two-time All-Star under
Nelson.

The only thing missing from Nelson's resume is a championship as a
coach or GM. He hasn't even made the finals.

His great Bucks teams in the 1980s were knocked out by better clubs in
Boston and Philadelphia. His high-scoring Warriors clubs always came
up short in the postseason, and the Mavs were eliminated by eventual
champion San Antonio in the West finals last season.

"Nellie could have won championships with any number of other
franchises," Harris said. "The NBA is still first of all about having
the best players, and secondarily about being the best coach. The best
coach still won't win a championship if he doesn't have the best
horses."

As a GM, Nelson has been an excellent talent evaluator, with Nowitzki
on his way to becoming the best example. Yet Nelson has never built a
team around a dominant center, despite offbeat attempts with long,
lanky guys like Manute Bol and Shawn Bradley.

The best two big men Nelson had turned against him: A young Chris
Webber and an aging Patrick Ewing.

On Sep 9, 12:37 am, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
> >I don't feel he earned it.
>
> Disagree.
>
> He earned all of it.
>
> First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout his
> career.  So he played bigger.
>
> Second, he put up the numbers and never, ever took a game, quarter, minute
> or play off.
>
> Third, the progress in his game from HS to the pros was ludricrous.  Hewas
> really, really raw as a teenager and while his game may never pass for being
> "polished", he was quite effective.
>
> Fourth, he was never a prima donna.  His job was to play and he did whatever
> his coaches asked of him.

Huh? If he was 6'9", then Olajuwon was 6'7".

I like the second point. He certainly was an intense competitor.

But the third and fourth points don't really single him out as a great
player.

I guess I don't have a problem with his selection, since he was a long
time all-star. I just never considered him "great".

On Sep 9, 6:33 am, cowznofsky <jhco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 12:37 am, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:MZqdnTb53ohmSV_VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
> > >I don't feel he earned it.
>
> > Disagree.
>
> > He earned all of it.
>
> > First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout his
> > career. So he played bigger.
>
> > Second, he put up the numbers and never, ever took a game, quarter, minute
> > or play off.
>
> > Third, the progress in his game from HS to the pros was ludricrous. He was
> > really, really raw as a teenager and while his game may never pass for being
> > "polished", he was quite effective.
>
> > Fourth, he was never a prima donna. His job was to play and he did whatever
> > his coaches asked of him.
>
> Huh? If he was 6'9", then Olajuwon was 6'7".
>
> I like the second point. He certainly was an intense competitor.
>
> But the third and fourth points don't really single him out as a great
> player.
>
> I guess I don't have a problem with his selection, since he was a long
> time all-star. I just never considered him "great".

I think you can say he was a force, but rarely put the team on his
back. Seems like he always needed someone else to do that when it
counted. Kind of like Webber (except at least when Pat pussied up and
played on the perimeter, he had a consistent Jumper, unlike Webber)...

Rizzo

"Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c949c66a-9f86-4997-97e6-09f884f08b54@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout
>> his
>> career. So he played bigger.
>>
>
> I agree he earned it, but he was 7'0 not 6'9". Look at game films of
> him next to other players.

I'm going by what he said on this subject a couple of years ago. Heights in
the NBA are regularly exaggerated. I like the examples of Barkley and
McHale. Old Charles was listed at 6'8" coming out of college. He admitted
that he was a shade over 6'4". McHale was listed at 6'11" coming out of
Minnesota. He was really 6'8".

> That is bullshit. Ask Don Nelson about that one. He asked to
> introduce SOME, not all, SOME plays that didn't include Ewing. Ewing
> pouted and got Nellie fired.

I forgot about this incident. However, in Ewings defense, I will offer that
it's been know for a LONG time that Don Nelsons style wasn't big man
friendly. Ewing doing this borders on self defense.

"Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:152b638c-c0f6-4559-bee2-08dfb68b26b6@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think you can say he was a force, but rarely put the team on his
> back. Seems like he always needed someone else to do that when it
> counted. Kind of like Webber (except at least when Pat pussied up and
> played on the perimeter, he had a consistent Jumper, unlike Webber)...

Isn't this the same thing they were saying about KG just a little while ago?
You gotta judge big men differently. One reason is that on offense, most of
them need someone to get them the ball in order to be effective. The second
is that big guys are expected to do more of the dirty work (like rebounding)
and things that don't show up in the box score (like "intimidating").
Remember, the ULTIMATE NBA CHAMPION, Bill Russell, didn't have the ultimate
stats.

It's too easy to say "Kobe really put his team on his back tonight" on a
night he scores 30 plus points. There are times, lots of them, when Parish
or Ewing, or one of the other great centers of the day, did the same by
pulling down 15+ boards, and blocking 2 or 3 shots, intimidated the other
team enough NOT to even try going into the paint...AND then added a bunch of
points on top of it with guys draped all over them. In those days, centers
were centers (i.e., "men"). They fought off other centers AND power
forwards.

On Sep 10, 6:21 pm, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Frank Rizzo" <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:152b638c-c0f6-4559-bee2-08dfb68b26b6@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I think you can say he was a force, but rarely put the team on his
> > back. Seems like he always needed someone else to do that when it
> > counted. Kind of like Webber (except at least when Pat pussied up and
> > played on the perimeter, he had a consistent Jumper, unlike Webber)...
>
> Isn't this the same thing they were saying about KG just a little while ago?
> You gotta judge big men differently. One reason is that on offense, most of
> them need someone to get them the ball in order to be effective. The second
> is that big guys are expected to do more of the dirty work (like rebounding)
> and things that don't show up in the box score (like "intimidating").
> Remember, the ULTIMATE NBA CHAMPION, Bill Russell, didn't have the ultimate
> stats.
>
> It's too easy to say "Kobe really put his team on his back tonight" on a
> night he scores 30 plus points. There are times, lots of them, when Parish
> or Ewing, or one of the other great centers of the day, did the same by
> pulling down 15+ boards, and blocking 2 or 3 shots, intimidated the other
> team enough NOT to even try going into the paint...AND then added a bunch of
> points on top of it with guys draped all over them. In those days, centers
> were centers (i.e., "men"). They fought off other centers AND power
> forwards.

Hey if a guy pulls down 20 rebounds or blocks 8 shots or both, he's
carrying the load even if he only has 12 points. Examples, Rodman,
Hakeem, Ben Wallace in his prime. I am saying guys like Ewing (and
Garnett) often disappear in the 4th quarter entirely. Still both are
great players, just not in the class of Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem,
etc.

Rizzo

On Sep 10, 6:09 pm, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Frank Rizzo" <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c949c66a-9f86-4997-97e6-09f884f08b54@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout
> >> his
> >> career. So he played bigger.
>
> > I agree he earned it, but he was 7'0 not 6'9". Look at game films of
> > him next to other players.
>
> I'm going by what he said on this subject a couple of years ago. Heights in
> the NBA are regularly exaggerated. I like the examples of Barkley and
> McHale. Old Charles was listed at 6'8" coming out of college. He admitted
> that he was a shade over 6'4". McHale was listed at 6'11" coming out of
> Minnesota. He was really 6'8".
>
> > That is bullshit. Ask Don Nelson about that one. He asked to
> > introduce SOME, not all, SOME plays that didn't include Ewing. Ewing
> > pouted and got Nellie fired.
>
> I forgot about this incident. However, in Ewings defense, I will offer that
> it's been know for a LONG time that Don Nelsons style wasn't big man
> friendly. Ewing doing this borders on self defense.

McHale didn't look 6'8 to me, ever.

On Sep 10, 9:09 pm, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Frank Rizzo" <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c949c66a-9f86-4997-97e6-09f884f08b54@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout
> >> his
> >> career.  So he played bigger.
>
> > I agree he earned it, but he was 7'0 not 6'9".  Look at game films of
> > him next to other players.
>
> I'm going by what he said on this subject a couple of years ago.  Heights in
> the NBA are regularly exaggerated.  I like the examples of Barkley and
> McHale.  Old Charles was listed at 6'8" coming out of college.  He admitted
> that he was a shade over 6'4".  McHale was listed at 6'11" coming out of
> Minnesota.  He was really 6'8".
>
> > That is bullshit.  Ask Don Nelson about that one.  He asked to
> > introduce SOME, not all, SOME plays that didn't include Ewing.  Ewing
> > pouted and got Nellie fired.
>
> I forgot about this incident.  However, in Ewings defense, I will offerthat
> it's been know for a LONG time that Don Nelsons style wasn't big man
> friendly.  Ewing doing this borders on self defense.

This is getting strange. Never have I seen Barkley listed at anything
except 6'6" or 6'5". And yes, it was often mentioned that 6'6" was a
stretch.
McHale towered over anybody who was listed at, say 6'7". So that
would cut, for example, Dominique or Bernard King down to 6'2" or 6'3"
apiece.

A picture of the 86 Celtics would help here. McHale was clearly
taller than Bird, so I'm not sure what to do with his height.
And in an interesting note in the other direction, we see that Walton,
who refused to be listed at 7' because he thought it would make him a
freak, was taller than Parish.

On Sep 11, 11:21 am, cowznofsky <jhco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sep 10, 9:09 pm, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Frank Rizzo" <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:c949c66a-9f86-4997-97e6-09f884f08b54@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >> First of all, he was really 6'9" not 7' like it was reported throughout
> > >> his
> > >> career. So he played bigger.
>
> > > I agree he earned it, but he was 7'0 not 6'9". Look at game films of
> > > him next to other players.
>
> > I'm going by what he said on this subject a couple of years ago. Heights in
> > the NBA are regularly exaggerated. I like the examples of Barkley and
> > McHale. Old Charles was listed at 6'8" coming out of college. He admitted
> > that he was a shade over 6'4". McHale was listed at 6'11" coming out of
> > Minnesota. He was really 6'8".
>
> > > That is bullshit. Ask Don Nelson about that one. He asked to
> > > introduce SOME, not all, SOME plays that didn't include Ewing. Ewing
> > > pouted and got Nellie fired.
>
> > I forgot about this incident. However, in Ewings defense, I will offer that
> > it's been know for a LONG time that Don Nelsons style wasn't big man
> > friendly. Ewing doing this borders on self defense.
>
> This is getting strange. Never have I seen Barkley listed at anything
> except 6'6" or 6'5". And yes, it was often mentioned that 6'6" was a
> stretch.
> McHale towered over anybody who was listed at, say 6'7". So that
> would cut, for example, Dominique or Bernard King down to 6'2" or 6'3"
> apiece.
>
> A picture of the 86 Celtics would help here. McHale was clearly
> taller than Bird, so I'm not sure what to do with his height.
> And in an interesting note in the other direction, we see that Walton,
> who refused to be listed at 7' because he thought it would make him a
> freak, was taller than Parish.

Exactly. They are all relative to each other. I don't think the NBA
exaggerates height at all.

Rizzo

"Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7e129d7c-ee7c-4fe2-9513-a09d213acaca@25g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 10, 6:21 pm, "Robert Chin" <bchin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Frank Rizzo" <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:152b638c-c0f6-4559-bee2-08dfb68b26b6@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > I think you can say he was a force, but rarely put the team on his
>> > back. Seems like he always needed someone else to do that when it
>> > counted. Kind of like Webber (except at least when Pat pussied up and
>> > played on the perimeter, he had a consistent Jumper, unlike Webber)...
>>
>> Isn't this the same thing they were saying about KG just a little while
>> ago?
>> You gotta judge big men differently. One reason is that on offense, most
>> of
>> them need someone to get them the ball in order to be effective. The
>> second
>> is that big guys are expected to do more of the dirty work (like
>> rebounding)
>> and things that don't show up in the box score (like "intimidating").
>> Remember, the ULTIMATE NBA CHAMPION, Bill Russell, didn't have the
>> ultimate
>> stats.
>>
>> It's too easy to say "Kobe really put his team on his back tonight" on a
>> night he scores 30 plus points. There are times, lots of them, when
>> Parish
>> or Ewing, or one of the other great centers of the day, did the same by
>> pulling down 15+ boards, and blocking 2 or 3 shots, intimidated the other
>> team enough NOT to even try going into the paint...AND then added a bunch
>> of
>> points on top of it with guys draped all over them. In those days,
>> centers
>> were centers (i.e., "men"). They fought off other centers AND power
>> forwards.
>
> Hey if a guy pulls down 20 rebounds or blocks 8 shots or both, he's
> carrying the load even if he only has 12 points. Examples, Rodman,
> Hakeem, Ben Wallace in his prime. I am saying guys like Ewing (and
> Garnett) often disappear in the 4th quarter entirely. Still both are
> great players, just not in the class of Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem,
> etc.
>
> Rizzo

rodman was not only a rebounding machine he had enough sense to pass the
ball to michael jordan.