..

I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass him,
but bummed that it had to come against us.

I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into the top
4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354

Right ahead of them are:
Kid Nichols at 361
Warren Spahn at 363
Pud Galvin at 364

Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more games.
That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.

"K2" <K2PadFan@padres.net> wrote in message
news:xo3vk.25221$Fr1.20206@newsfe03.iad...
>I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass him,
>but bummed that it had to come against us.
>
> I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into the
> top 4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
> He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354
>
> Right ahead of them are:
> Kid Nichols at 361
> Warren Spahn at 363
> Pud Galvin at 364
>
> Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more games.
> That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.

.... make that "Top 5"...
There's a tie for 3rd (Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson) at 373. I had a
brain fart and had him in 4th if he passed Galvin... he'd be in 5th. Oops.

On Sep 1, 9:37 pm, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
> "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote in message
>
> news:xo3vk.25221$Fr1.20206@newsfe03.iad...
>
> >I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass him,
> >but bummed that it had to come against us.
>
> > I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into the
> > top 4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
> > He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354
>
> > Right ahead of them are:
> > Kid Nichols at 361
> > Warren Spahn at 363
> > Pud Galvin at 364
>
> > Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more games.
> > That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.
>
> ... make that "Top 5"...
> There's a tie for 3rd (Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson) at 373. I had a
> brain fart and had him in 4th if he passed Galvin... he'd be in 5th. Oops..



I hope he passes all those guys although I wouldn't necessarily make
the argument that he's better than Spahn or Mathewson.

I love the type of athlete that Maddux represents. A guy whose success
was based upon a deep understanding of the game rather than a win of
the genetic lottery.

"Kurgan Gringioni." <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6e9d1059-de67-4be1-ac50-edcf9af41134@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 1, 9:37 pm, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
> "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote in message
>
> news:xo3vk.25221$Fr1.20206@newsfe03.iad...
>
> >I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass
> >him,
> >but bummed that it had to come against us.
>
> > I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into the
> > top 4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
> > He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354
>
> > Right ahead of them are:
> > Kid Nichols at 361
> > Warren Spahn at 363
> > Pud Galvin at 364
>
> > Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more
> > games.
> > That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.
>
> ... make that "Top 5"...
> There's a tie for 3rd (Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson) at 373. I had
> a
> brain fart and had him in 4th if he passed Galvin... he'd be in 5th. Oops.



I hope he passes all those guys although I wouldn't necessarily make
the argument that he's better than Spahn or Mathewson.

I love the type of athlete that Maddux represents. A guy whose success
was based upon a deep understanding of the game rather than a win of
the genetic lottery.

===========================================================

That's the way it is with "Career" records... they take into account both
quality and endurance.
Koufax was brilliant for a few years, but flamed out too soon. His greatness
is still recognized, though.
Career records are a way for the guys maybe a notch lower in talent to make
their mark... these records require one to play at a high (though perhaps
not the highest) level for a long, long time.

That's why Maddux has a shot at top 5 in wins.
That's why Hoffy and Rivera will grace the stratosphere of the all-time
saves list for a long time. (Though both had enough stellar individual
seasons to warrant consideration for "All time greatest closer" even without
the extraordinary long careers.
That's why a good-but-not-great hitter like Pete Rose (*spit*) has a lock on
the all-time hits record.

On Sep 1, 10:23 pm, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
> "Kurgan Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6e9d1059-de67-4be1-ac50-edcf9af41134@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 1, 9:37 pm, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:xo3vk.25221$Fr1.20206@newsfe03.iad...
>
> > >I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass
> > >him,
> > >but bummed that it had to come against us.
>
> > > I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into the
> > > top 4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
> > > He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354
>
> > > Right ahead of them are:
> > > Kid Nichols at 361
> > > Warren Spahn at 363
> > > Pud Galvin at 364
>
> > > Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more
> > > games.
> > > That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.
>
> > ... make that "Top 5"...
> > There's a tie for 3rd (Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson) at 373. I had
> > a
> > brain fart and had him in 4th if he passed Galvin... he'd be in 5th. Oops.
>
> I hope he passes all those guys although I wouldn't necessarily make
> the argument that he's better than Spahn or Mathewson.
>
> I love the type of athlete that Maddux represents. A guy whose success
> was based upon a deep understanding of the game rather than a win of
> the genetic lottery.
>
> ===========================================================
>
> That's the way it is with "Career" records... they take into account both
> quality and endurance.
> Koufax was brilliant for a few years, but flamed out too soon. His greatness
> is still recognized, though.
> Career records are a way for the guys maybe a notch lower in talent to make
> their mark... these records require one to play at a high (though perhaps
> not the highest) level for a long, long time.
>
> That's why Maddux has a shot at top 5 in wins.
> That's why Hoffy and Rivera will grace the stratosphere of the all-time
> saves list for a long time. (Though both had enough stellar individual
> seasons to warrant consideration for "All time greatest closer" even without
> the extraordinary long careers.
> That's why a good-but-not-great hitter like Pete Rose (*spit*) has a lockon
> the all-time hits record.




Maddux really impressed me when he won those Cy Youngs. He never had
any overpowering stuff, but his reading of the batters and his
location was outstanding.

I wonder why he's not as dominant now (although still very good) as he
was then? An 80mph fastball instead of 89?

As an aside, I enjoyed how Tony Gwynn had his number. Gwynn seemed to
be the one of a kind instinct hitter that a thinking-man's-pitcher
like Maddux couldn't solve.

On Sep 2, 1:23 am, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
> "Kurgan Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6e9d1059-de67-4be1-ac50-edcf9af41134@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 1, 9:37 pm, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:xo3vk.25221$Fr1.20206@newsfe03.iad...
>
> > >I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass
> > >him,
> > >but bummed that it had to come against us.
>
> > > I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into the
> > > top 4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
> > > He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354
>
> > > Right ahead of them are:
> > > Kid Nichols at 361
> > > Warren Spahn at 363
> > > Pud Galvin at 364
>
> > > Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more
> > > games.
> > > That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.
>
> > ... make that "Top 5"...
> > There's a tie for 3rd (Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson) at 373. I had
> > a
> > brain fart and had him in 4th if he passed Galvin... he'd be in 5th. Oops.
>
> I hope he passes all those guys although I wouldn't necessarily make
> the argument that he's better than Spahn or Mathewson.
>
> I love the type of athlete that Maddux represents. A guy whose success
> was based upon a deep understanding of the game rather than a win of
> the genetic lottery.
>
> ===========================================================
>
> That's the way it is with "Career" records... they take into account both
> quality and endurance.
> Koufax was brilliant for a few years, but flamed out too soon. His greatness
> is still recognized, though.
> Career records are a way for the guys maybe a notch lower in talent to make
> their mark... these records require one to play at a high (though perhaps
> not the highest) level for a long, long time.
>
> That's why Maddux has a shot at top 5 in wins.
> That's why Hoffy and Rivera will grace the stratosphere of the all-time
> saves list for a long time. (Though both had enough stellar individual
> seasons to warrant consideration for "All time greatest closer" even without
> the extraordinary long careers.
> That's why a good-but-not-great hitter like Pete Rose (*spit*) has a lock on
> the all-time hits record.

Depends on what you mean by talent. Maddux may not have the raw speed
and extreme breaking pitches but he has other worldly control. That
is visually less impressive but perhaps just as important when it
comes to getting results. During the 1994 and 1995 seasons Maddux
piled up results that are either unequaled or close to unequalled
ever. He shone as bright or brighter than anyone (even Koufax, Pedro
is the only challenger as I see it). So what you have is both an
extremely terrific peak and a mightily impressive career length. And
that gets you career records.

Rose is perhaps a good example of what you are trying to demonstrate.
His peak was not as bright, but still pretty bright. Couple that with
getting to decide who plays even if it is not in the best interest of
the team and you begin to explain Rose's career hit record.

Staying healthy and playing a long time is a skill and not something
that just anyone can do. One must be extremely dedicated to his craft
and lucky/blessed. What I am trying to say is that Maddux is not a
step down in talent. He is not equivalent to Rose in the model of
pretty good times long career equals impressive stats. He is super
excellent times long career equals stats not seen by anyone living.

I know that you were not attempting to degrade Maddux, but he is
better than you suggest. I've been shooting for win #374 for 5 or 6
years now. I drove 4 hours one way to go see Greg pitch in DC last
week. Hope it was not my last chance to see him.

Shining the Light,
Marty Winn

"Marty Winn" <marty.winn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:62415258-cb54-48f7-9345-ff1deacf06f3@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 2, 1:23 am, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
>> "Kurgan Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:6e9d1059-de67-4be1-ac50-edcf9af41134@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 1, 9:37 pm, "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "K2" <K2Pad...@padres.net> wrote in message
>>
>> >news:xo3vk.25221$Fr1.20206@newsfe03.iad...
>>
>> > >I was happy to see MadDog tie Clemens (*spit*), hopefully soon to pass
>> > >him,
>> > >but bummed that it had to come against us.
>>
>> > > I hope he decides to pitch one more year. He could easily climb into
>> > > the
>> > > top 4 in wins with an 8 to 10 win season.
>> > > He's now tied for 8th with Clemens at 354
>>
>> > > Right ahead of them are:
>> > > Kid Nichols at 361
>> > > Warren Spahn at 363
>> > > Pud Galvin at 364
>>
>> > > Assuming he's got 4 more starts this season, he may win 1 or 2 more
>> > > games.
>> > > That would put him within 8-9 wins of Galvin.
>>
>> > ... make that "Top 5"...
>> > There's a tie for 3rd (Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson) at 373. I
>> > had
>> > a
>> > brain fart and had him in 4th if he passed Galvin... he'd be in 5th.
>> > Oops.
>>
>> I hope he passes all those guys although I wouldn't necessarily make
>> the argument that he's better than Spahn or Mathewson.
>>
>> I love the type of athlete that Maddux represents. A guy whose success
>> was based upon a deep understanding of the game rather than a win of
>> the genetic lottery.
>>
>> ===========================================================
>>
>> That's the way it is with "Career" records... they take into account both
>> quality and endurance.
>> Koufax was brilliant for a few years, but flamed out too soon. His
>> greatness
>> is still recognized, though.
>> Career records are a way for the guys maybe a notch lower in talent to
>> make
>> their mark... these records require one to play at a high (though perhaps
>> not the highest) level for a long, long time.
>>
>> That's why Maddux has a shot at top 5 in wins.
>> That's why Hoffy and Rivera will grace the stratosphere of the all-time
>> saves list for a long time. (Though both had enough stellar individual
>> seasons to warrant consideration for "All time greatest closer" even
>> without
>> the extraordinary long careers.
>> That's why a good-but-not-great hitter like Pete Rose (*spit*) has a lock
>> on
>> the all-time hits record.
>
> Depends on what you mean by talent. Maddux may not have the raw speed
> and extreme breaking pitches but he has other worldly control. That
> is visually less impressive but perhaps just as important when it
> comes to getting results. During the 1994 and 1995 seasons Maddux
> piled up results that are either unequaled or close to unequalled
> ever. He shone as bright or brighter than anyone (even Koufax, Pedro
> is the only challenger as I see it). So what you have is both an
> extremely terrific peak and a mightily impressive career length. And
> that gets you career records.
>
> Rose is perhaps a good example of what you are trying to demonstrate.
> His peak was not as bright, but still pretty bright. Couple that with
> getting to decide who plays even if it is not in the best interest of
> the team and you begin to explain Rose's career hit record.
>
> Staying healthy and playing a long time is a skill and not something
> that just anyone can do. One must be extremely dedicated to his craft
> and lucky/blessed. What I am trying to say is that Maddux is not a
> step down in talent. He is not equivalent to Rose in the model of
> pretty good times long career equals impressive stats. He is super
> excellent times long career equals stats not seen by anyone living.
>
> I know that you were not attempting to degrade Maddux, but he is
> better than you suggest. I've been shooting for win #374 for 5 or 6
> years now. I drove 4 hours one way to go see Greg pitch in DC last
> week. Hope it was not my last chance to see him.
>
> Shining the Light,
> Marty Winn

Good point... what I was trying to say was that MadDog wasn't an
overpowering "power" pitcher that people tend to think of as the cream of
the crop... the guys who just blow everyone away.
Maddux had the knack of making batters get themselves out, which is indeed
quite a talent in itself.
That he can still post quality ERA's (and, whem with a good team backing
him, wins) at this point in his career when his fastball rarely sees the
sunny side of 85MPH speaks volumes as to the skill and control he still has,
and of course his fielding hasn't missed a beat.

"Kurgan Gringioni." <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote:

>< I love the type of athlete that Maddux represents. A guy whose success
was based upon a deep understanding of the game rather than a win of
the genetic lottery.<<

I think for a guy who has won 17 gold glove awards, Maddux is probably a
very under-rated athlete. He used to hit pretty good, too.

Pitching-wise, back in his best days in Atlanta, he would regularly hit
91-92, and occasionally 93 with his fastball.

--
Jolly Rogers

Have you read the news today?
http://www.amren.com/





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