He may be lost for the season

Where's Ben Agajanian? He's still alive.

Ben is one of two players to play in the NFL, AAFC and AFL

"Jeff Gersten" <JeffGersten@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2908-48AE9EEF-609@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...
> He may be lost for the season
>

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGersten@webtv.net (Jeff
Gersten) wrote:

>He may be lost for the season

Uuuugh!

Hats N Bats

--
Remove the 5s to e-mail

NY Giants 2007 Super Bowl Champions!

On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> Gersten) wrote:
> >He may be lost for the season
>
> Uuuugh!

Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
accurate FG kicker anyway ...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumber6@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>
>> Gersten) wrote:
>> >He may be lost for the season
>>
>> Uuuugh!
>
>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>

Not dreading Huston at all. I'm looking at it from the view that I
believe Tynes grew with that kick in GB last season and that he was
going to be rock solid this year.

This takes away something that I perceived to be solid, which of
course may not have turned out that way but now we'll not know. IIR
Huston almost had Tynes beat out last camp, correct?

Hats N Bats

--
Remove the 5s to e-mail

NY Giants 2007 Super Bowl Champions!

On Aug 22, 10:53 am, Hats N Bats wrote:

>
> Not dreading Huston at all. I'm looking at it from the view that I
> believe Tynes grew with that kick in GB last season and that he was
> going to be rock solid this year.

The Giants giving him a new contract showed they thought similarly ...
The thing with Huston is that he has a longer leg ... The coverage
team is used to Tynes shorter but more consistent and directional ...
and will have to adjust their angles and containment if Huston is the
choice ... An aging vet kicker will be more like Tynes ... so look for
someone new on cut down day if Tynes isn't ready to go ...


> This takes away something that I perceived to be solid, which of
> course may not have turned out that way but now we'll not know. IIR
> Huston almost had Tynes beat out last camp, correct?

In most peoples eyes i recall ...
The trademark of a good team is that they have no worries about a
punter ... FG kicker ... long snapper ... holder ... we were that last
year ...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumber6@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>
>> Gersten) wrote:
>> >He may be lost for the season
>>
>> Uuuugh!
>
>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>accurate FG kicker anyway ...

<yawn> This old discussion again?

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:53:09 -0400, Hats N Bats wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumber6@aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>>
>>> Gersten) wrote:
>>> >He may be lost for the season
>>>
>>> Uuuugh!
>>
>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>>
>
>Not dreading Huston at all. I'm looking at it from the view that I
>believe Tynes grew with that kick in GB last season and that he was
>going to be rock solid this year.

Not to mention that he was better then given credit for being before
that.

>This takes away something that I perceived to be solid, which of
>course may not have turned out that way but now we'll not know. IIR
>Huston almost had Tynes beat out last camp, correct?

I bet we wind up with some grizzled vet.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************

kmcclave@SPAM666twcny.rr.com (Kevin McClave) wrote:

>I bet we wind up with some grizzled vet.

Jay Feely is out there, cut by the Dolphins.

Meanwhile, it's not sure that Tynes is out for the season. The medical
staff will know more after the exploratory surgery. (My original post
did say MAY miss the entire season, not definetely will.)

>I bet we wind up with some grizzled vet.

What's Raul Allegre up to these days?

--
"Ever since the 60's, it's been all downhill" - Keith Hernandez, on how
far we've sunk as a culture

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
<kmcclave@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumber6@aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>>
>>> Gersten) wrote:
>>> >He may be lost for the season
>>>
>>> Uuuugh!
>>
>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
><yawn> This old discussion again?
>
>******************************************************************
>Kevin McClave
>
>"To justify himself, each relies on
>the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
>******************************************************************

It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri; remember,
he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch. If he hadn't made the
47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
preseason practice field taking out his other knee. The Giants will
find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
they need.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, will@verizon.net wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
><kmcclave@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumber6@aol.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>>>
>>>> Gersten) wrote:
>>>> >He may be lost for the season
>>>>
>>>> Uuuugh!
>>>
>>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>>
>><yawn> This old discussion again?
>
>It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri; remember,
>he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
>the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch. If he hadn't made the
>47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
>preseason practice field taking out his other knee. The Giants will
>find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
>they need.

Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.

At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
rest of the league.

On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>
> >>>> Uuuugh!
>
> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>
> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
> >they need.      
>
> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.

If I recall correctly, you were among those people.

> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
> rest of the league.

Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
acting strangely and I can't find much right now. In any case, place
kicking is an odd business. Look at Tynes in Green Bay last year...
One minute he's thinking about renting an apartment in Green Bay
because he won't be allowed back in NY, but an interception later,
he's the $7 million man.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
>> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
>> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
>> >>wrote:
>>
>> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>
>> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
>> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>>
>> >>>> Uuuugh!
>>
>> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>>
>> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>>
>> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
>> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
>> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
>> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
>> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
>> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
>> >they need.      
>>
>> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
>> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.
>
>If I recall correctly, you were among those people.

You do not recall correctly. I think the harshest thing I ever said
about Tynes was going in to last season that I ha no problem if they
found an upgrade. That doesn't mean I thought he was bad or that he
made me uncomfortable, only that he wasn't elite or anything. He had a
good season.

There is a lot of history here of people damning our various kickers
for what they were worried was going to happen (or more likely not
happen) than what actually happened. Much of that time, I've been
pointing that out. It started back with Daluiso.

>> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
>> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
>> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
>> rest of the league.
>
>Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
>some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
>kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
>being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
>acting strangely and I can't find much right now.

I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
worst in the league every year.


************************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it."
~Robert F. Kennedy
************************************************************************

On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
wrote:
Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
> worst in the league every year.
>

There has been a lot of improvement ... Coughlin has the kick-offs
going to the same place ... with the same hang time ... Coverage knew
exactly how to cover ... consistency is important ... Last week the
kicks were deeper <maybe even higher - not sure there> but erratic ...
and coverage was poor ... not to bad kicking ... or tackling ... but
being different from what they were used to ... both where they went
and how consistently they went there ... luckily the KO team had a lot
of practice ...

Feagles as a punter is expert at it ... Tynes as a kicker was doing
quite well also ...

On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
>
>
>
>
> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
> >> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
> >> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
> >> >>wrote:
>
> >> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> >> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
> >> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>
> >> >>>> Uuuugh!
>
> >> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
> >> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
> >> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
> >> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
> >> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
> >> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
> >> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
> >> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
> >> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
> >> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>
> >> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
> >> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
> >> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
> >> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
> >> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
> >> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
> >> >they need.      
>
> >> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
> >> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.
>
> >If I recall correctly, you were among those people.
>
> You do not recall correctly. I think the harshest thing I ever said
> about Tynes was going in to last season that I ha no problem if they
> found an upgrade. That doesn't mean I thought he was bad or that he
> made me uncomfortable, only that he wasn't elite or anything. He had a
> good season.

You called Tynes "shaky" back in early November and you were right. He
snapped out of it later, much to everyone's delight.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-giants/msg/f1b8b281cf952605?hl=en

> There is a lot of history here of people damning our various kickers
> for what they were worried was going to happen (or more likely not
> happen) than what actually happened. Much of that time, I've been
> pointing that out.

I know you take it to heart, but I'm not sure we're any worse about it
than most other football fans. Maybe. Maybe not. Or did we just have
more reason to be worried? I do recall some kickers I wasn't very
impressed with on kickoffs. Owen Pochman comes to mind. Bryant had his
shitty stretches, but overall, he was a pretty decent kicker.

> It started back with Daluiso.

I liked Daluiso and never really had a problem with him, especially
since he was quite accurate on FGs and PATs. I'm wondering if most of
the unfair criticism you recall was back in those days.

> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
> >> rest of the league.
>
> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>
> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
> worst in the league every year.

Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
the Giants ranked among the NFL:

Season Giants-ranking
2007 21st of 32
2006 16th of 32
2005 9th of 32
2004 31st of 32
2003 21st of 32
2002 21st of 32
2001 24th of 31

That's as far back as they go, but it shows the whole post-Daluiso
era.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
>> >> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
>> >> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
>> >> >>wrote:
>>
>> >> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> >> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>
>> >> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
>> >> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>>
>> >> >>>> Uuuugh!
>>
>> >> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>> >> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>> >> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>> >> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>> >> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>> >> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>> >> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>> >> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>> >> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>>
>> >> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>>
>> >> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
>> >> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
>> >> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
>> >> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
>> >> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
>> >> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
>> >> >they need.      
>>
>> >> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
>> >> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.
>>
>> >If I recall correctly, you were among those people.
>>
>> You do not recall correctly. I think the harshest thing I ever said
>> about Tynes was going in to last season that I ha no problem if they
>> found an upgrade. That doesn't mean I thought he was bad or that he
>> made me uncomfortable, only that he wasn't elite or anything. He had a
>> good season.
>
>You called Tynes "shaky" back in early November and you were right. He
>snapped out of it later, much to everyone's delight.
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-giants/msg/f1b8b281cf952605?hl=en
>
>> There is a lot of history here of people damning our various kickers
>> for what they were worried was going to happen (or more likely not
>> happen) than what actually happened. Much of that time, I've been
>> pointing that out.
>
>I know you take it to heart, but I'm not sure we're any worse about it
>than most other football fans. Maybe. Maybe not. Or did we just have
>more reason to be worried? I do recall some kickers I wasn't very
>impressed with on kickoffs. Owen Pochman comes to mind. Bryant had his
>shitty stretches, but overall, he was a pretty decent kicker.
>
>> It started back with Daluiso.
>
>I liked Daluiso and never really had a problem with him, especially
>since he was quite accurate on FGs and PATs. I'm wondering if most of
>the unfair criticism you recall was back in those days.
>
>> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
>> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
>> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
>> >> rest of the league.
>>
>> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
>> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
>> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
>> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
>> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>>
>> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
>> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
>> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
>> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
>> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
>> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
>> worst in the league every year.
>
>Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
>the Giants ranked among the NFL:
>
>Season Giants-ranking
>2007 21st of 32
>2006 16th of 32
>2005 9th of 32
>2004 31st of 32
>2003 21st of 32
>2002 21st of 32
>2001 24th of 31
>
>That's as far back as they go, but it shows the whole post-Daluiso
>era.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>DocE
>
>
>"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
>--------------------------------------------------
>


Thanks, Doc. How much yardage per kick in actual field position does
that translate to?

On Aug 23, 6:31 am, Tom Benton <tbentonhatesspamhate...@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
>
>
>
>
> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
> >> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
> >> >> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
> >> >> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
> >> >> >>wrote:
>
> >> >> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >> >> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> >> >> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
> >> >> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>
> >> >> >>>> Uuuugh!
>
> >> >> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
> >> >> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
> >> >> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
> >> >> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
> >> >> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
> >> >> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
> >> >> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
> >> >> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
> >> >> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
> >> >> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>
> >> >> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
> >> >> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
> >> >> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
> >> >> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
> >> >> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
> >> >> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
> >> >> >they need.      
>
> >> >> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
> >> >> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.
>
> >> >If I recall correctly, you were among those people.
>
> >> You do not recall correctly. I think the harshest thing I ever said
> >> about Tynes was going in to last season that I ha no problem if they
> >> found an upgrade. That doesn't mean I thought he was bad or that he
> >> made me uncomfortable, only that he wasn't elite or anything. He had a
> >> good season.
>
> >You called Tynes "shaky" back in early November and you were right. He
> >snapped out of it later, much to everyone's delight.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-giants/msg/...
>
> >> There is a lot of history here of people damning our various kickers
> >> for what they were worried was going to happen (or more likely not
> >> happen) than what actually happened. Much of that time, I've been
> >> pointing that out.
>
> >I know you take it to heart, but I'm not sure we're any worse about it
> >than most other football fans. Maybe. Maybe not. Or did we just have
> >more reason to be worried? I do recall some kickers I wasn't very
> >impressed with on kickoffs. Owen Pochman comes to mind. Bryant had his
> >shitty stretches, but overall, he was a pretty decent kicker.
>
> >> It started back with Daluiso.
>
> >I liked Daluiso and never really had a problem with him, especially
> >since he was quite accurate on FGs and PATs. I'm wondering if most of
> >the unfair criticism you recall was back in those days.
>
> >> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
> >> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
> >> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
> >> >> rest of the league.
>
> >> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
> >> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
> >> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
> >> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
> >> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>
> >> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
> >> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
> >> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
> >> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
> >> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
> >> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
> >> worst in the league every year.
>
> >Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
> >the Giants ranked among the NFL:
>
> >Season  Giants-ranking
> >2007       21st of 32
> >2006       16th of 32
> >2005        9th  of 32
> >2004       31st of 32
> >2003       21st of 32
> >2002       21st of 32
> >2001       24th of 31
>
> >That's as far back as they go, but it shows the whole post-Daluiso
> >era.
>
>
> Thanks, Doc.  How much yardage per kick in actual field position does
> that translate to?

Those numbers above just show ranking in terms of kickoff distances.
For actual field position after the kickoff, you'd have to see how
they fared at covering kicks and also consider how many kicks went for
touchbacks.

Speaking of touchbacks, the Giants had some exceedingly low numbers in
that stat from 2001 through 2004, before Jay Feely was acquired. This
could be a big reason why people thought the Giants kickoffs were
shabby.

In 2001, they only had 2 touchbacks, while the league average was 6.9
and the league leading team, the Chargers, had 18. In 2002, they again
had only 2 while the average was 6.2 and Raiders led all with 22. In
2003, only 2 again while the average was 5.9 and the NFL-leading
Dolphins had 24. In 2004, again only 2 while the average was 6.5, and
the leading club was the Cards with 23.

In 2005, things changed dramatically, with the Giants ranking 6th with
12 touchbacks. This was followed with being tied for 8th in 2006 with
another 12. Last year, they had 8 which was tied for 17th.

It seems like Feely was easily the best of the Giants kickoff kickers
in the above era with his average distances and number of touchbacks.
It's too bad his career was destroyed by that game in Seattle. ;)

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

"DoctorElefant" <DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2106034f-3a8f-459e-8713-2ec08a90fa03@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...


It seems like Feely was easily the best of the Giants kickoff kickers
in the above era with his average distances and number of touchbacks.
It's too bad his career was destroyed by that game in Seattle. ;)

Kickers are like closers in baseball in my book. They can get hot and have
a great year and then suddenly they become extremely shaky and unreliable.
You have your Rivera and Vinateris that perform at a high level forever but
most are somewhere in the middle. I'd put Feely and Tynes are somewhere in
that middle group. Daluiso and Matt Bahr were in the second tier right
below the great ones.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
>> >> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
>> >> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
>> >> >>wrote:
>>
>> >> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> >> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>
>> >> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
>> >> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>>
>> >> >>>> Uuuugh!
>>
>> >> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>> >> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>> >> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>> >> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>> >> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>> >> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>> >> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>> >> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>> >> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>>
>> >> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>>
>> >> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
>> >> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
>> >> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
>> >> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
>> >> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
>> >> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
>> >> >they need.      
>>
>> >> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
>> >> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.
>>
>> >If I recall correctly, you were among those people.
>>
>> You do not recall correctly. I think the harshest thing I ever said
>> about Tynes was going in to last season that I ha no problem if they
>> found an upgrade. That doesn't mean I thought he was bad or that he
>> made me uncomfortable, only that he wasn't elite or anything. He had a
>> good season.
>
>You called Tynes "shaky" back in early November and you were right. He
>snapped out of it later, much to everyone's delight.
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-giants/msg/f1b8b281cf952605?hl=en

Well, the full comment was "he's shaky, but this is also a boy who
cried wolf scenario where people are generally *never* happy with the
kicker. "

Even when he snapped out of it, people "felt' he wasn't reliable. You
know this as well as I do, Doc. This isn't unrelated to that dumb myth
that Feely had the "yips" after the horrid Seattle game. There was
nothing that *actually happened* that backed up that seemingly widely
held opinion. people just "felt" that he was still in his own head
about the meltdown in Seattle.

>> There is a lot of history here of people damning our various kickers
>> for what they were worried was going to happen (or more likely not
>> happen) than what actually happened. Much of that time, I've been
>> pointing that out.
>
>I know you take it to heart, but I'm not sure we're any worse about it
>than most other football fans. Maybe. Maybe not. Or did we just have
>more reason to be worried? I do recall some kickers I wasn't very
>impressed with on kickoffs. Owen Pochman comes to mind. Bryant had his
>shitty stretches, but overall, he was a pretty decent kicker.

Bryant was a high school kicker. ;^)

Seriously, he's a good example. He was blamed for not being able to
make 45+ yard FGs when he was hardly ever asked to and when he hit on
something like 2 of 4 in the few chances he did have.

My main thing in all of this is to try and add actual perspective
based on what's happened. People generally tend to look at their team
in a fishbowl, and that has been most evident it seems in the kicking
game, particularly on kickoffs. The days of Brad Daluiso knocking 30
TBs through the endzone are gone (because there's been a kickoff ball
for a long time now) and yet people still seem to expect this.

>> It started back with Daluiso.
>
>I liked Daluiso and never really had a problem with him, especially
>since he was quite accurate on FGs and PATs. I'm wondering if most of
>the unfair criticism you recall was back in those days.

Daluiso was definitely under appreciated. He's one of the best kickers
the Giants ever had. Best couple, not top 10. I think in his case, a
lot of it was to do with people thinking he was inferior to Matt Bahr
in particular.

>> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
>> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
>> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
>> >> rest of the league.
>>
>> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
>> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
>> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
>> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
>> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>>
>> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
>> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
>> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
>> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
>> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
>> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
>> worst in the league every year.
>
>Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
>the Giants ranked among the NFL:
>
>Season Giants-ranking
>2007 21st of 32
>2006 16th of 32
>2005 9th of 32
>2004 31st of 32
>2003 21st of 32
>2002 21st of 32
>2001 24th of 31

Of course, those numbers relate to return yards, too (yes, I know it's
related), and for a team that drafted a ST only player pretty highly
specifically to address it's bad ST coverage (that Catch is just a
bonus). There are other numbers that indicate kickoff depth, TBs, etc.
In those numbers that isolate the kicker as much as possible (never
completely possible, of course) they did not rank as lowly as the
numbers above.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 06:32:21 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 23, 6:31 am, Tom Benton <tbentonhatesspamhate...@nycap.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>>
>> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>>
>> >> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
>> >> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
>> >> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
>> >> >> rest of the league.
>>
>> >> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
>> >> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
>> >> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
>> >> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
>> >> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>>
>> >> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
>> >> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
>> >> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
>> >> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
>> >> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
>> >> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
>> >> worst in the league every year.
>>
>> >Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
>> >the Giants ranked among the NFL:
>>
>> >Season  Giants-ranking
>> >2007       21st of 32
>> >2006       16th of 32
>> >2005        9th  of 32
>> >2004       31st of 32
>> >2003       21st of 32
>> >2002       21st of 32
>> >2001       24th of 31
>>
>> >That's as far back as they go, but it shows the whole post-Daluiso
>> >era.
>>
>> Thanks, Doc.  How much yardage per kick in actual field position does
>> that translate to?
>
>Those numbers above just show ranking in terms of kickoff distances.

Oh, disregard my question/comment about that in the other post.

>For actual field position after the kickoff, you'd have to see how
>they fared at covering kicks and also consider how many kicks went for
>touchbacks.
>
>Speaking of touchbacks, the Giants had some exceedingly low numbers in
>that stat from 2001 through 2004, before Jay Feely was acquired. This
>could be a big reason why people thought the Giants kickoffs were
>shabby.
>
>In 2001, they only had 2 touchbacks, while the league average was 6.9
>and the league leading team, the Chargers, had 18. In 2002, they again
>had only 2 while the average was 6.2 and Raiders led all with 22. In
>2003, only 2 again while the average was 5.9 and the NFL-leading
>Dolphins had 24. In 2004, again only 2 while the average was 6.5, and
>the leading club was the Cards with 23.
>
>In 2005, things changed dramatically, with the Giants ranking 6th with
>12 touchbacks. This was followed with being tied for 8th in 2006 with
>another 12. Last year, they had 8 which was tied for 17th.
>
>It seems like Feely was easily the best of the Giants kickoff kickers
>in the above era with his average distances and number of touchbacks.
>It's too bad his career was destroyed by that game in Seattle. ;)

OK, I'm seriously confused here. Brian and I have both come to the
same general conclusion previously about the not-so-dire state of the
kickoffs...and anyone who's been here a while knows Brian and I have
no problem disagreeing with one another.

I know that the numbers we both independently posted previously did
not paint this same picture you have posted, so I am at a loss to
understand the difference...or has it really been so long ago that the
situation actually changed? Doesn't seem as though the more recent
discussions of this were back in Daluiso's tenure.

Brian?

***************************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"All of us might wish at times that we lived in a more tranquil world,
but we don't. And if our times are difficult and perplexing, so are
they challenging and filled with opportunity." ~ Robert F. Kennedy
***************************************************************************

On Aug 23, 9:30 am, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
>
>
>
>
> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
> >> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >On Aug 22, 7:20 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:39:33 -0400, w...@verizon.net wrote:
> >> >> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:36:54 -0400, Kevin McClave
> >> >> ><kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> >>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
> >> >> >>wrote:
>
> >> >> >>>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >> >> >>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> >> >> >>>> Gersten) wrote:
> >> >> >>>> >He may be lost for the season
>
> >> >> >>>> Uuuugh!
>
> >> >> >>>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
> >> >> >>>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
> >> >> >>>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
> >> >> >>>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
> >> >> >>>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
> >> >> >>>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
> >> >> >>>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
> >> >> >>>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
> >> >> >>>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
> >> >> >><yawn> This old discussion again?
>
> >> >> >It's not like Tynes is a superstar kicker like Vinatieri;  remember,
> >> >> >he missed two in regulation against Green Bay which could have lost
> >> >> >the championship if Giants D wasn't so staunch.  If he hadn't made the
> >> >> >47 yarder in overtime, anyone of you would have been out there on the
> >> >> >preseason practice field taking out his other knee.  The Giants will
> >> >> >find an adequate kicker who will keep them in the game- that's all
> >> >> >they need.      
>
> >> >> Which is, in fact, what they had. Tynes had a good season last year,
> >> >> despite a lot of people "feeling" uncomfortable about him.
>
> >> >If I recall correctly, you were among those people.
>
> >> You do not recall correctly. I think the harshest thing I ever said
> >> about Tynes was going in to last season that I ha no problem if they
> >> found an upgrade. That doesn't mean I thought he was bad or that he
> >> made me uncomfortable, only that he wasn't elite or anything. He had a
> >> good season.
>
> >You called Tynes "shaky" back in early November and you were right. He
> >snapped out of it later, much to everyone's delight.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-giants/msg/...
>
> Well, the full comment was "he's shaky, but this is also a boy who
> cried wolf scenario where people are generally *never* happy with the
> kicker. "
>
> Even when he snapped out of it, people "felt' he wasn't reliable. You
> know this as well as I do, Doc. This isn't unrelated to that dumb myth
> that Feely had the "yips" after the horrid Seattle game. There was
> nothing that *actually happened* that backed up that seemingly widely
> held opinion. people just "felt" that he was still in his own head
> about the meltdown in Seattle.

After all the discussions we've had over the years about kickers and
kicking, I think it really boils down to the fact that everybody is
subject to slumps. I didn't think the Giants would bring in Tynes last
year if he sucked. In fact, I had heard a lot of good things about
him. But man, he was driving me nuts early last year. I didn't call
for his head, but merely hoped he'd get over it.

I was pretty much thinking the same about Feely after the Seattle
mess. I know we joked about it a lot, but it sure seemed like he was
shaky for a couple of weeks after that game. He got over it, but he
seemed a little off to me for a while.

Devon said something in the thread that the post I quoted above came
from, about bowling and golf. I know some guys that were really good
at sports like football and basketball, but played hell trying to bowl
and golf. I think bowling and golfing are good examples of sports
where timing and mechanics make or break you, probably a lot like
kicking. Scratch bowlers can miss an easy spare, and think too much
about it before that easy spare is again confronting them. Golfers can
get a case of the shanks out of the blue and struggle to make it go
away. None of this means your best games aren't still ahead of you,
but it can make you look bad for a while.

> >> There is a lot of history here of people damning our various kickers
> >> for what they were worried was going to happen (or more likely not
> >> happen) than what actually happened. Much of that time, I've been
> >> pointing that out.
>
> >I know you take it to heart, but I'm not sure we're any worse about it
> >than most other football fans. Maybe. Maybe not. Or did we just have
> >more reason to be worried? I do recall some kickers I wasn't very
> >impressed with on kickoffs. Owen Pochman comes to mind. Bryant had his
> >shitty stretches, but overall, he was a pretty decent kicker.
>
> Bryant was a high school kicker.  ;^)
>
> Seriously, he's a good example. He was blamed for not being able to
> make 45+ yard FGs when he was hardly ever asked to and when he hit on
> something like 2 of 4 in the few chances he did have.

Very true.

> My main thing in all of this is to try and add actual perspective
> based on what's happened. People generally tend to look at their team
> in a fishbowl, and that has been most evident it seems in the kicking
> game, particularly on kickoffs. The days of Brad Daluiso knocking 30
> TBs through the endzone are gone (because there's been a kickoff ball
> for a long time now) and yet people still seem to expect this.

Also, the kicking-off yard-line got moved back a couple of times.

> >> It started back with Daluiso.
>
> >I liked Daluiso and never really had a problem with him, especially
> >since he was quite accurate on FGs and PATs. I'm wondering if most of
> >the unfair criticism you recall was back in those days.
>
> Daluiso was definitely under appreciated. He's one of the best kickers
> the Giants ever had. Best couple, not top 10. I think in his case, a
> lot of it was to do with people thinking he was inferior to Matt Bahr
> in particular.

Bahr won the Super Bowl. You know how that goes.

> >> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
> >> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
> >> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
> >> >> rest of the league.
>
> >> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that there was
> >> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
> >> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me for not
> >> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive search is
> >> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>
> >> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
> >> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
> >> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
> >> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
> >> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
> >> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
> >> worst in the league every year.
>
> >Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
> >the Giants ranked among the NFL:
>
> >Season  Giants-ranking
> >2007       21st of 32
> >2006       16th of 32
> >2005        9th  of 32
> >2004       31st of 32
> >2003       21st of 32
> >2002       21st of 32
> >2001       24th of 31
>
> Of course, those numbers relate to return yards, too (yes, I know it's
> related), and for a team that drafted a ST only player pretty highly
> specifically to address it's bad ST coverage (that Catch is just a
> bonus). There are other numbers that indicate kickoff depth, TBs, etc.
> In those numbers that isolate the kicker as much as possible (never
> completely possible, of course) they did not rank as lowly as the
> numbers above.

I see where you addressed this again in the next post, and said to
disregard. But briefly, and it was a complaint I had about Bryant
early on, those low kicks that don't show up in the stats can be real
killers, the coverage not having time to get downfield and defend.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Aug 23, 10:01 am, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 06:32:21 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
>
>
>
>
> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 23, 6:31 am, Tom Benton <tbentonhatesspamhate...@nycap.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
> >> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >On Aug 22, 9:18 pm, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAMBUNKERtwcny.rr.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
> >> >> >> At any rate, I was specifically responding about the issue of
> >> >> >> kickoffs. It's something that comes up here and is almost always
> >> >> >> painted as being much worse than it really is when you look at the
> >> >> >> rest of the league.
>
> >> >> >Sometimes, but I think you pulled up some stats showing that therewas
> >> >> >some of what the Tuna would call "hidden yardage" lost on the Giants
> >> >> >kickoffs being shorter than those of the opponents. Forgive me fornot
> >> >> >being able to bring up the specifics but the Google archive searchis
> >> >> >acting strangely and I can't find much right now.
>
> >> >> I don't recall anything like that. Brian has also posted numbers on
> >> >> this issue in the past, but I don't recall anything like that in what
> >> >> he's posted either. Mainly, when taken among their peers, the Giants
> >> >> kickers have been anywhere from good (even second to only Olindo Mare
> >> >> and the Dolphins in one recent season) to mediocre in kickoffs the
> >> >> past decade or so. To read here, you'd think that they were among the
> >> >> worst in the league every year.
>
> >> >Sportsline shows the team kickoff averages. Let's take a look at where
> >> >the Giants ranked among the NFL:
>
> >> >Season  Giants-ranking
> >> >2007       21st of 32
> >> >2006       16th of 32
> >> >2005        9th  of 32
> >> >2004       31st of 32
> >> >2003       21st of 32
> >> >2002       21st of 32
> >> >2001       24th of 31
>
> >> >That's as far back as they go, but it shows the whole post-Daluiso
> >> >era.
>
> >> Thanks, Doc.  How much yardage per kick in actual field position does
> >> that translate to?
>
> >Those numbers above just show ranking in terms of kickoff distances.
>
> Oh, disregard my question/comment about that in the other post.
>
>
>
>
>
> >For actual field position after the kickoff, you'd have to see how
> >they fared at covering kicks and also consider how many kicks went for
> >touchbacks.
>
> >Speaking of touchbacks, the Giants had some exceedingly low numbers in
> >that stat from 2001 through 2004, before Jay Feely was acquired. This
> >could be a big reason why people thought the Giants kickoffs were
> >shabby.
>
> >In 2001, they only had 2 touchbacks, while the league average was 6.9
> >and the league leading team, the Chargers, had 18. In 2002, they again
> >had only 2 while the average was 6.2 and Raiders led all with 22. In
> >2003, only 2 again while the average was 5.9 and the NFL-leading
> >Dolphins had 24. In 2004, again only 2 while the average was 6.5, and
> >the leading club was the Cards with 23.
>
> >In 2005, things changed dramatically, with the Giants ranking 6th with
> >12 touchbacks. This was followed with being tied for 8th in 2006 with
> >another 12. Last year, they had 8 which was tied for 17th.
>
> >It seems like Feely was easily the best of the Giants kickoff kickers
> >in the above era with his average distances and number of touchbacks.
> >It's too bad his career was destroyed by that game in Seattle. ;)
>
> OK, I'm seriously confused here. Brian and I have both come to the
> same general conclusion previously about the not-so-dire state of the
> kickoffs...and anyone who's been here a while knows Brian and I have
> no problem disagreeing with one another.
>
> I know that the numbers we both independently posted previously did
> not paint this same picture you have posted, so I am at a loss to
> understand the difference...or has it really been so long ago that the
> situation actually changed? Doesn't seem as though the more recent
> discussions of this were back in Daluiso's tenure.

I believe we talked about this post-Daluiso quite a bit. That's not to
say that the majority of the complaining came after Daluiso. I'm not
sure. But I think the years 2001 through 2004 was a time when this "we
suck at kickoffs" was at a pretty high point. I don't remember nearly
as much complaining, if any, during the Feely era.

I did notice something else interesting in the touchback stats. FWIW,
in 2005-2006-2007, the league total went up dramatically from
2002-2003-2004.

> Brian?

He's probably busy with French class.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

Kevin McClave wrote:

>>>> Season Giants-ranking
>>>> 2007 21st of 32
>>>> 2006 16th of 32
>>>> 2005 9th of 32
>>>> 2004 31st of 32
>>>> 2003 21st of 32
>>>> 2002 21st of 32
>>>> 2001 24th of 31

> OK, I'm seriously confused here. Brian and I have both come to the
> same general conclusion previously about the not-so-dire state of the
> kickoffs...and anyone who's been here a while knows Brian and I have
> no problem disagreeing with one another.
>
> I know that the numbers we both independently posted previously did
> not paint this same picture you have posted, so I am at a loss to
> understand the difference...or has it really been so long ago that the
> situation actually changed? Doesn't seem as though the more recent
> discussions of this were back in Daluiso's tenure.
>
> Brian?

Well, it's probably been a few years since I did this - maybe not since
Feely was here - and the years he was here were best.

I think a better indication would be starting position. I found this
article:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/12/best-defensive-player-in-nfl-isneil.html

It is from last December but it shows the past few years for kickers, not
just last year, and Feely comes in 15th place (out of 48, which puts him in
the top third of kickers) whereas Tynes finished 14th from the bottom which
explains things.

Again, it's a pereception issue a lot of times but we have had a drop-off in
field position with Tynes than with Feely, however this difference is only
about 3 yards.

On Aug 24, 1:35 pm, "Brian K. O'Neill" <a2ys3s...@sneakemail.com>
wrote:
> Kevin McClave wrote:
> >>>> Season Giants-ranking
> >>>> 2007 21st of 32
> >>>> 2006 16th of 32
> >>>> 2005 9th of 32
> >>>> 2004 31st of 32
> >>>> 2003 21st of 32
> >>>> 2002 21st of 32
> >>>> 2001 24th of 31
> > OK, I'm seriously confused here. Brian and I have both come to the
> > same general conclusion previously about the not-so-dire state of the
> > kickoffs...and anyone who's been here a while knows Brian and I have
> > no problem disagreeing with one another.
>
> > I know that the numbers we both independently posted previously did
> > not paint this same picture you have posted, so I am at a loss to
> > understand the difference...or has it really been so long ago that the
> > situation actually changed? Doesn't seem as though the more recent
> > discussions of this were back in Daluiso's tenure.
>
> > Brian?
>
> Well, it's probably been a few years since I did this - maybe not sinceFeelywas here - and the years he was here were best.
>
> I think a better indication would be starting position.  I found this
> article:
>
> http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/12/best-defensive-player-in-nfl-...
>
> It is from last December but it shows the past few years for kickers, not
> just last year, andFeelycomes in 15th place (out of 48, which puts him in
> the top third of kickers) whereas Tynes finished 14th from the bottom which
> explains things.
>
> Again, it's a pereception issue a lot of times but we have had a drop-offin
> field position with Tynes than withFeely, however this difference is only
> about 3 yards.

By the way, Feely just signed with Tynes' old team... the Chiefs...
who obviously read your post.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

DoctorElefant wrote:

>>>>>> Season Giants-ranking
>>>>>> 2007 21st of 32
>>>>>> 2006 16th of 32
>>>>>> 2005 9th of 32
>>>>>> 2004 31st of 32
>>>>>> 2003 21st of 32
>>>>>> 2002 21st of 32
>>>>>> 2001 24th of 31

>>> OK, I'm seriously confused here. Brian and I have both come to the
>>> same general conclusion previously about the not-so-dire state of
>>> the kickoffs...and anyone who's been here a while knows Brian and I
>>> have no problem disagreeing with one another.

>>> I know that the numbers we both independently posted previously did
>>> not paint this same picture you have posted, so I am at a loss to
>>> understand the difference...or has it really been so long ago that
>>> the situation actually changed? Doesn't seem as though the more
>>> recent discussions of this were back in Daluiso's tenure.
>>
>>> Brian?

>> Well, it's probably been a few years since I did this - maybe not
>> since Feely was here - and the years he was here were best.
>>
>> I think a better indication would be starting position. I found this
>> article:
>>
>> http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/12/best-defensive-player-in-nfl-...
>>
>> It is from last December but it shows the past few years for
>> kickers, not
>> just last year, andFeelycomes in 15th place (out of 48, which puts
>> him in
>> the top third of kickers) whereas Tynes finished 14th from the
>> bottom which
>> explains things.
>>
>> Again, it's a pereception issue a lot of times but we have had a
>> drop-off in
>> field position with Tynes than withFeely, however this difference is
>> only
>> about 3 yards.

> By the way, Feely just signed with Tynes' old team... the Chiefs...
> who obviously read your post.

Most NFL franchises consult me when making important moves...

On Aug 26, 7:59 pm, "Brian K. O'Neill" <a2ys3s...@sneakemail.com>
wrote:
> DoctorElefant wrote:
> >>>>>> Season Giants-ranking
> >>>>>> 2007 21st of 32
> >>>>>> 2006 16th of 32
> >>>>>> 2005 9th of 32
> >>>>>> 2004 31st of 32
> >>>>>> 2003 21st of 32
> >>>>>> 2002 21st of 32
> >>>>>> 2001 24th of 31
> >>> OK, I'm seriously confused here. Brian and I have both come to the
> >>> same general conclusion previously about the not-so-dire state of
> >>> the kickoffs...and anyone who's been here a while knows Brian and I
> >>> have no problem disagreeing with one another.
> >>> I know that the numbers we both independently posted previously did
> >>> not paint this same picture you have posted, so I am at a loss to
> >>> understand the difference...or has it really been so long ago that
> >>> the situation actually changed? Doesn't seem as though the more
> >>> recent discussions of this were back in Daluiso's tenure.
>
> >>> Brian?
> >> Well, it's probably been a few years since I did this - maybe not
> >> since Feely was here - and the years he was here were best.
>
> >> I think a better indication would be starting position. I found this
> >> article:
>
> >>http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/12/best-defensive-player-in-nfl-....
>
> >> It is from last December but it shows the past few years for
> >> kickers, not
> >> just last year, andFeelycomes in 15th place (out of 48, which puts
> >> him in
> >> the top third of kickers) whereas Tynes finished 14th from the
> >> bottom which
> >> explains things.
>
> >> Again, it's a pereception issue a lot of times but we have had a
> >> drop-off in
> >> field position with Tynes than withFeely, however this difference is
> >> only
> >> about 3 yards.
> > By the way, Feely just signed with Tynes' old team... the Chiefs...
> > who obviously read your post.
>
> Most NFL franchises consult me when making important moves...

I didn't realize you were still bartending.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Aug 25, 4:29 pm, DoctorElefant <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:

> By the way, Feely just signed with Tynes' old team... the Chiefs...
> who obviously read your post.

....and *that* didn't last too long :)

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT), charlieG
<charlie.griefer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Aug 25, 4:29 pm, DoctorElefant <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> By the way, Feely just signed with Tynes' old team... the Chiefs...
>> who obviously read your post.
>
>...and *that* didn't last too long :)

Whoa, the only thing faster would be Hussain Bolt....

http://snipurl.com/3kfac
Hats N Bats

--
Remove the 5s to e-mail

NY Giants 2007 Super Bowl Champions!

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:13:20 -0400, Hats N Bats wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT), charlieG
><charlie.griefer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Aug 25, 4:29 pm, DoctorElefant <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> By the way, Feely just signed with Tynes' old team... the Chiefs...
>>> who obviously read your post.
>>
>>...and *that* didn't last too long :)
>
>Whoa, the only thing faster would be Hussain Bolt....
>
>http://snipurl.com/3kfac
>Hats N Bats

Here's a link with a little more to the story of Feely and his cut
from Miami:

http://snipurl.com/3kfeb

Getting cut by Herm Edwards is probably a ringing endorsement for the
guy :D

Hats N Bats

--
Remove the 5s to e-mail

NY Giants 2007 Super Bowl Champions!

On Aug 27, 6:25 pm, Hats N Bats wrote:

> Here's a link with a little more to the story of Feely and his cut
> from Miami:
>
> http://snipurl.com/3kfeb

"He also said he regularly outkicked the rookie from Montana by 10
yards on kickoffs."

He probably only really outkicked the kid by 2 yards. His years with
the Giants made him exaggerate. Kevin will back me up on this. ;)

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 27, 6:25 pm, Hats N Bats wrote:
>
>> Here's a link with a little more to the story of Feely and his cut
>> from Miami:
>>
>> http://snipurl.com/3kfeb
>
>"He also said he regularly outkicked the rookie from Montana by 10
>yards on kickoffs."
>
>He probably only really outkicked the kid by 2 yards. His years with
>the Giants made him exaggerate. Kevin will back me up on this. ;)
>
Doc, you'd make a great arsonist, you know that?

Hats N Bats

--
Remove the 5s to e-mail

NY Giants 2007 Super Bowl Champions!

On Aug 28, 7:07 pm, Hats N Bats wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 27, 6:25 pm, Hats N Bats wrote:
>
> >> Here's a link with a little more to the story of Feely and his cut
> >> from Miami:
>
> >>http://snipurl.com/3kfeb
>
> >"He also said he regularly outkicked the rookie from Montana by 10
> >yards on kickoffs."
>
> >He probably only really outkicked the kid by 2 yards. His years with
> >the Giants made him exaggerate. Kevin will back me up on this.  ;)
>
> Doc, you'd make a great arsonist, you know that?

Like Dean Martin used to say, "Just trying to have a little fun,
folks!"

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 28, 7:07 pm, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>>
>> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 27, 6:25 pm, Hats N Bats wrote:
>>
>> >> Here's a link with a little more to the story of Feely and his cut
>> >> from Miami:
>>
>> >>http://snipurl.com/3kfeb
>>
>> >"He also said he regularly outkicked the rookie from Montana by 10
>> >yards on kickoffs."
>>
>> >He probably only really outkicked the kid by 2 yards. His years with
>> >the Giants made him exaggerate. Kevin will back me up on this.  ;)
>>
>> Doc, you'd make a great arsonist, you know that?
>
>Like Dean Martin used to say, "Just trying to have a little fun,
>folks!"
>

Long live the Rat Pack!

Hats N Bats

--
Remove the 5s to e-mail

NY Giants 2007 Super Bowl Champions!

On Aug 22, 11:38 am, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:53:09 -0400, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> >>> Gersten) wrote:
> >>> >He may be lost for the season
>
> >>> Uuuugh!
>
> >>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
> >>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
> >>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
> >>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
> >>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
> >>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
> >>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
> >>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
> >>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
> >Not dreading Huston at all. I'm looking at it from the view that I
> >believe Tynes grew with that kick in GB last season and that he was
> >going to be rock solid this year.
>
> Not to mention that he was better then given credit for being before
> that.
>
> >This takes away something that I perceived to be solid, which of
> >course may not have turned out that way but now we'll not know. IIR
> >Huston almost had Tynes beat out last camp, correct?
>
> I bet we wind up with some grizzled vet.

Carney. Great call, Kevin.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:54 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
<DoctorElefant@aol.com> wrote:

>On Aug 22, 11:38 am, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:53:09 -0400, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>>
>> >>> Gersten) wrote:
>> >>> >He may be lost for the season
>>
>> >>> Uuuugh!
>>
>> >>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
>> >>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
>> >>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
>> >>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
>> >>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
>> >>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
>> >>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
>> >>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
>> >>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>>
>> >Not dreading Huston at all. I'm looking at it from the view that I
>> >believe Tynes grew with that kick in GB last season and that he was
>> >going to be rock solid this year.
>>
>> Not to mention that he was better then given credit for being before
>> that.
>>
>> >This takes away something that I perceived to be solid, which of
>> >course may not have turned out that way but now we'll not know. IIR
>> >Huston almost had Tynes beat out last camp, correct?
>>
>> I bet we wind up with some grizzled vet.
>
>Carney. Great call, Kevin.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>DocE
>
>
>"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
>--------------------------------------------------


I somehow doubt that Kevin was thinking even that grizzled. What next,
Jan Stenerud?

On Aug 31, 7:07 pm, Tom Benton <tbentonhatesspamhate...@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:54 -0700 (PDT), DoctorElefant
>
>
>
>
>
> <DoctorElef...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 11:38 am, Kevin McClave <kmccl...@SPAM666twcny.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:53:09 -0400, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT), number6 <snumb...@aol.com>
> >> >wrote:
>
> >> >>On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Hats N Bats wrote:
> >> >>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:11:43 -0400, JeffGers...@webtv.net (Jeff
>
> >> >>> Gersten) wrote:
> >> >>> >He may be lost for the season
>
> >> >>> Uuuugh!
>
> >> >>Funny ... a year ago ... I think Huston was the consensus candidate
> >> >>over Tynes ... Now we all dread him ... His kicks were quite deep last
> >> >>game ... but deeper than the coverage team was used to ... and not
> >> >>very directional ... I feel that caused the problems ...
> >> >>There are quite a number of adequate aging kickers for hire ... so
> >> >>this may not be a disaster ... although I believe we will be kicking
> >> >>off a helluva lot of time this year ... so a good deep kicker is
> >> >>important ... but since it'll be TDs over FGs ... who needs an
> >> >>accurate FG kicker anyway ...
>
> >> >Not dreading Huston at all. I'm looking at it from the view that I
> >> >believe Tynes grew with that kick in GB last season and that he was
> >> >going to be rock solid this year.
>
> >> Not to mention that he was better then given credit for being before
> >> that.
>
> >> >This takes away something that I perceived to be solid, which of
> >> >course may not have turned out that way but now we'll not know. IIR
> >> >Huston almost had Tynes beat out last camp, correct?
>
> >> I bet we wind up with some grizzled vet.
>
> >Carney. Great call, Kevin.
>
> I somehow doubt that Kevin was thinking even that grizzled. What next,
> Jan Stenerud?

Like Lubow said... Ben Agajanian... which is fine with me since I
never got to see him play yet.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
--------------------------------------------------