Remember when Ricciardi dealt Gabe Gross, David Bush and Zack Jackson to
Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay. Well Oberbay, who is really a second-rate first
baseman, this year has only 6 home runs in 291 at bats whereas Gross
now with Tampa Bay has 7 homers in only 134 at bats. And unlike Overbay
Goss can run and has a much better arm.

Another bad deal by Ricciardi: the trade of gold-glove 2b Orlando Hudson for
the
often disabled Troy Glaus, and then Glaus of Scott Rolen. Well, Hudson has
10 homers to Rolen's 6 and the O-Dog has 37 rbis with no Jay having reached
40.

Also Ricciardi gave away Eric Hinkse who is now with Tampa Bay having hit 13
homers with no Jay yet hitting 10. Hinske now has 44 rbis, more than that of
any
Blue Jay in 2008. Rolen has only 26 and Oberbay 33.

But worse than Ricciardi's bad trades has been his failure to rebuild the
Jays' farm
system with its Double A team, New Hampshire, the worst in the the Eastern
League,
presently a whopping 20 games out of first place in its division. None of
Baseball America's top rookie prospects for 2009 are of the Jays.

The present Jays team mainly consists of second-rate players like Scudero,
MacDonald, Inglett, Stairs, Zaun, Barajas, Shannon Stewart, Rolen (although
still a very good defensive first-baseman), David Eckstein, Brad Wilkerson,
and closer
P.J. Ryan. All these players are past their prime--if they ever had one, and
should be discarded.

Departed manager John Gibson and his coaches were not at fault. Nor will
rehired manager Cito Gaston make any real difference. The majority of Jays'
players are just not good enough and it is the fault of Gord Ash and more
recently J.P. Ricciardi. Patch-work, band aid solutions are not going to
help.

"Proteus" <proteus@ambiance.com> wrote in message
news:5Cqck.201397$Uf4.129372@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com...
> Remember when Ricciardi dealt Gabe Gross, David Bush and Zack Jackson to
> Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay. Well Oberbay, who is really a second-rate
> first
> baseman, this year has only 6 home runs in 291 at bats whereas Gross
> now with Tampa Bay has 7 homers in only 134 at bats. And unlike Overbay
> Goss can run and has a much better arm.
>
> Another bad deal by Ricciardi: the trade of gold-glove 2b Orlando Hudson
> for
> the
> often disabled Troy Glaus, and then Glaus of Scott Rolen. Well, Hudson has
> 10 homers to Rolen's 6 and the O-Dog has 37 rbis with no Jay having
> reached
> 40.
>
> Also Ricciardi gave away Eric Hinkse who is now with Tampa Bay having hit
> 13
> homers with no Jay yet hitting 10. Hinske now has 44 rbis, more than that
> of
> any
> Blue Jay in 2008. Rolen has only 26 and Oberbay 33.
>
> But worse than Ricciardi's bad trades has been his failure to rebuild the
> Jays' farm
> system with its Double A team, New Hampshire, the worst in the the Eastern
> League,
> presently a whopping 20 games out of first place in its division. None of
> Baseball America's top rookie prospects for 2009 are of the Jays.
>
> The present Jays team mainly consists of second-rate players like Scudero,
> MacDonald, Inglett, Stairs, Zaun, Barajas, Shannon Stewart, Rolen
> (although
> still a very good defensive first-baseman), David Eckstein, Brad
> Wilkerson,
> and closer
> P.J. Ryan. All these players are past their prime--if they ever had one,
> and
> should be discarded.
>
> Departed manager John Gibson and his coaches were not at fault. Nor will
> rehired manager Cito Gaston make any real difference. The majority of
> Jays'
> players are just not good enough and it is the fault of Gord Ash and more
> recently J.P. Ricciardi. Patch-work, band aid solutions are not going to
> help.
>
>
>
>

umm Rolen plays third

"Kevin" <someone@home.com> wrote in message
news:wIwck.14706$Mc.4708@read1.cgocable.net...
>
> "Proteus" <proteus@ambiance.com> wrote in message
> news:5Cqck.201397$Uf4.129372@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com...
>> Remember when Ricciardi dealt Gabe Gross, David Bush and Zack Jackson to
>> Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay. Well Oberbay, who is really a second-rate
>> first
>> baseman, this year has only 6 home runs in 291 at bats whereas Gross
>> now with Tampa Bay has 7 homers in only 134 at bats. And unlike Overbay
>> Goss can run and has a much better arm.
>>
>> Another bad deal by Ricciardi: the trade of gold-glove 2b Orlando Hudson
>> for
>> the
>> often disabled Troy Glaus, and then Glaus of Scott Rolen. Well, Hudson
>> has
>> 10 homers to Rolen's 6 and the O-Dog has 37 rbis with no Jay having
>> reached
>> 40.
>>
>> Also Ricciardi gave away Eric Hinkse who is now with Tampa Bay having hit
>> 13
>> homers with no Jay yet hitting 10. Hinske now has 44 rbis, more than that
>> of
>> any
>> Blue Jay in 2008. Rolen has only 26 and Oberbay 33.
>>
>> But worse than Ricciardi's bad trades has been his failure to rebuild the
>> Jays' farm
>> system with its Double A team, New Hampshire, the worst in the the
>> Eastern
>> League,
>> presently a whopping 20 games out of first place in its division. None of
>> Baseball America's top rookie prospects for 2009 are of the Jays.
>>
>> The present Jays team mainly consists of second-rate players like
>> Scudero,
>> MacDonald, Inglett, Stairs, Zaun, Barajas, Shannon Stewart, Rolen
>> (although
>> still a very good defensive first-baseman), David Eckstein, Brad
>> Wilkerson,
>> and closer
>> P.J. Ryan. All these players are past their prime--if they ever had one,
>> and
>> should be discarded.
>>
>> Departed manager John Gibson and his coaches were not at fault. Nor will
>> rehired manager Cito Gaston make any real difference. The majority of
>> Jays'
>> players are just not good enough and it is the fault of Gord Ash and more
>> recently J.P. Ricciardi. Patch-work, band aid solutions are not going to
>> help.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> umm Rolen plays third

Yes, you are right. But that is irrelevant. The point is, trading Hudson for
Glaus/Rolen did not help the Jays at all.

(snip dribble)

proteus wrote>
Yes, you are right. But that is irrelevant. The point is, trading Hudson
for Glaus/Rolen did not help the Jays at all

reply>
No your wrong,it's far from irrelevant.
It shows your whole post is so full of holes
and at least five other dumb mistakes.
Your knowledge of the jays is as about
as credible and profound as a bat boy
on a fantasy team!

I'm sure jp had no idea at the time he traded hudson and unloaded sub
par
pitcher miguel batista he would end up
with one of the best 3rd basemen in
mlb down the road,shit luck.

Further more in another post you say they
should unload guys like AH,SR,RB,MS,
GZ,JM,etc etc etc,and spout calling up
players from the minors to replace them
all duh.Well in the next breath you say
the farm teams are horrible and they
have no prospects,,,how fn foolish does
that sound...ahhhhhh duhhhhhhhhhh

>But worse than Ricciardi's bad trades has been his failure to rebuild
the Jays' farm
system with its Double A team, New Hampshire, the worst in the the
Eastern
League,
presently a whopping 20 games out of first place in its division. None
of Baseball America's top rookie prospects for 2009 are of the Jays>


Well I may agree that i am no fan of
jp's you should stick to quoting acid
heads like george orwell,down on
the animal farm.

Your ideas would set the jays back 15
years or more.I don't profess to have
the answers and it takes a lot of savvy
to put together a successful team that has
a consistent winning record year after
year,thats for sure.

You may wana go over to the cubs ng and
ask them why they have not won a world
series in a century.While the jays have
won two back to back,5 division titles,
2 al pennants all in less time then any
other expansion franchise in mlb.They
won a division title in 85 when they where
still barley in puberty in baseball time
lines,and would have gotten a few wcard
shots as well if they had been available.

Still the team and their current manager
get no credit in the american media,but
I am sure the other teams who play
them every season have respect for their
success.

When was the last time you saw the jays
play a game on american national tv,
instead we get to watch endless games
with the likes of the over hyped,over
rated,over paid,and under achieving
tigers.Over and over again,every season
The jays have one of.if not the best
pitcher in the modern era on their staff
and you think they might pay the team
some respect and show case him
and the team at least once in a season,
nope not good for ratings i guess.

As for eric f'n hinske don't make me laugh,why do you think the current
ws champs dumped his ass,the drays
are this years cindy team and mlb wants
it that way.Can you spell revenue?

Just like the other one shot wonders from
the disney land state.

<bushdoctor48@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1529-487C7ACB-2205@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net...
> (snip dribble)
>
> proteus wrote>
> Yes, you are right. But that is irrelevant. The point is, trading Hudson
> for Glaus/Rolen did not help the Jays at all
>
> reply>
> No your wrong, it's far from irrelevant.


> It shows your whole post is so full of holes
> and at least five other dumb mistakes.

What are they, stupid?

>
> I'm sure jp had no idea at the time he traded hudson and unloaded sub
> par > pitcher miguel batista he would end up
> with one of the best 3rd basemen in
> mlb down the road, shit luck.

You have to be kidding. Rolen is a very good infielder. But third base
reguires an effective hitter. It is a power-hitting position. Look at the
current third basemen of the Yankees and Red Sox, and then contrast their
production with Rolen's.


The Jays' senior minor league teams are awful. Syracuse is now 12 games
behind the leader in its division and AA
New Hampshire is 21 games behind. And this has happened almost every year
under J.P.

But there are still three or four young players that can help the Jays now:
middle infielder Scott Campbell, D.H. Travis Snider, catchers Arencibia and
Jerolman and pitchers Brit Cecil, and David Purcey. They would at least
increase fan interest. The Jays should bring up all of them now and get rid
of Zaun, MacDonald, Mench, Camp, Wilkerson, Barajas, Mat Stairs and
Eckstein. Former Jay's manager John Gibbons would not use rookie outfielder
Adam Lind. Gaston, however, in one of his first moves brought Lind back up
and Lind recently he has been the Jays' most effective hitter.

There will be little pressure on them as the Jays are out of contention. And
there is nothing wrong with bringing young, greeen rookies up to the major
league team. John Olerud never played one game in the minors yet was an
outstanding first baseman.
Cleveland Indians pitcher Bob Feller made his major league debut with
Cleveland at 18 with no bad effects. He became great.

"Proteus" <proteus@ambiance.com> wrote in message
news:GF%gk.235817$Uf4.65797@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com...
>
> <bushdoctor48@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:1529-487C7ACB-2205@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net...
>> (snip dribble)
>>
>> proteus wrote>
>> Yes, you are right. But that is irrelevant. The point is, trading Hudson
>> for Glaus/Rolen did not help the Jays at all
>>
>> reply>
>> No your wrong, it's far from irrelevant.
>
>
>> It shows your whole post is so full of holes
>> and at least five other dumb mistakes.
>
> What are they, stupid?
>
>>
>> I'm sure jp had no idea at the time he traded hudson and unloaded sub
>> par > pitcher miguel batista he would end up
>> with one of the best 3rd basemen in
>> mlb down the road, shit luck.
>
> You have to be kidding. Rolen is a very good infielder. But third base
> reguires an effective hitter. It is a power-hitting position. Look at the
> current third basemen of the Yankees and Red Sox, and then contrast their
> production with Rolen's.
>
>
> The Jays' senior minor league teams are awful. Syracuse is now 12 games
> behind the leader in its division and AA
> New Hampshire is 21 games behind. And this has happened almost every year
> under J.P.
>



Minor leagues aren't strictly about wins and losses. The more important
aspect is to make sure your best prospects get all the work they need on
specific skills.

"Bill Kawalec" <billkawalec@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uKdncuHp83QTRnVnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Proteus" <proteus@ambiance.com> wrote in message
> news:GF%gk.235817$Uf4.65797@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com...
>>
>> <bushdoctor48@webtv.net> wrote in message
>> news:1529-487C7ACB-2205@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net...
>>> (snip dribble)
>>>
>>> proteus wrote>
>>> Yes, you are right. But that is irrelevant. The point is, trading Hudson
>>> for Glaus/Rolen did not help the Jays at all
>>>
>>> reply>
>>> No your wrong, it's far from irrelevant.
>>
>>
>>> It shows your whole post is so full of holes
>>> and at least five other dumb mistakes.
>>
>> What are they, stupid?
>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure jp had no idea at the time he traded hudson and unloaded sub
>>> par > pitcher miguel batista he would end up
>>> with one of the best 3rd basemen in
>>> mlb down the road, shit luck.

What crap! The Jays would have been better off this year with Hector Luna
playing third.
At least they would still have Orlando Hudson, an all-star second basesman,
currently hitting over .300 with 117 hits.

>>
>> You have to be kidding. Rolen is a very good infielder. But third base
>> reguires an effective hitter. It is a power-hitting position. Look at the
>> current third basemen of the Yankees and Red Sox, and then contrast their
>> production with Rolen's.
>>
>>
>> The Jays' senior minor league teams are awful. Syracuse is now 12 games
>> behind the leader in its division and AA
>> New Hampshire is 21 games behind. And this has happened almost every year
>> under J.P.
>>
>
>
>
> Minor leagues aren't strictly about wins and losses.

Of course not. But a good farm system will still have minor league teams
that perform well and are not every
year near the bottom of the heap like the Jays' AAA and AA teams.


The more important
> aspect is to make sure your best prospects get all the work they need on
> specific skills.
>
But you also want several good prospects on these teams performing well. The
Yankees and Red Sox, who always draft lower than the Jays, always seem to
have more prospects. Their senior farm clubs invariably are better than the
those of the Jays.

Their scouts also perform better. For example when the Jays were going after
Troy Glaus (who has now been replaced by Rolen) the Red Sox picked up Mike
Lowell who this year has 13 home runs and 63 rbi's, more than any Jay
player. When the Blue Jays signed Lyle Overbay the Red Sox got Kevin Youklis
who now has 20 homers and 75 rbis, again more than any Jay player in 2008.
The Jays forked out millions for an over-the-hill Frank Thomas as a DH
whereas the Red Sox signed David Ortiz whom no one had heard of, from the
White Sox. Again this shows us that the Red Sox front office has been much
smarter than that of the Jays.

One has to blame Ricciardi and Paul Godfrey for the present awful Blue Jays
club, which should end up in the AL East basement this year.





>
>
>
>
>

"Proteus" <proteus@ambiance.com> wrote in message
news:iWFlk.276954$Gv.253315@en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com...
>
>>
> But you also want several good prospects on these teams performing well.



to make sure your best prospects get all the work they need on
specific skills.





The
> Yankees and Red Sox, who always draft lower than the Jays, always seem to
> have more prospects. Their senior farm clubs invariably are better than
> the those of the Jays.



Look around MLB and see how many ex-Jays are on teams that are doing well.
As a matter of fact, if you saw the Fox network telecast on Saturday, they
have a feature where you can vote, among three candidates in each league,
for the "clutch performer of the month." Among the six players named were
Roy Halladay, and three ex-Jays. Point is, they have the prospects, but
they're not keeping them.





>
> Their scouts also perform better. For example when the Jays were going
> after Troy Glaus (who has now been replaced by Rolen) the Red Sox picked
> up Mike Lowell who this year has 13 home runs and 63 rbi's, more than any
> Jay player. When the Blue Jays signed Lyle Overbay the Red Sox got Kevin
> Youklis who now has 20 homers and 75 rbis, again more than any Jay player
> in 2008. The Jays forked out millions for an over-the-hill Frank Thomas
> as a DH whereas the Red Sox signed David Ortiz whom no one had heard of,
> from the White Sox. Again this shows us that the Red Sox front office has
> been much smarter than that of the Jays.



I'm willing to bet that, with the possible exception of Thomas (and we saw
what they did to him), all of those other players are being paid more $$$$
than the Jays' alternative. I'm not saying they should pay out the big $$$
though. Did you hear what Francisco Rodriguez is going to ask for on the FA
market this winter?? 5 years, at $15 million per! I fear some fool will
actually pay that...






>
> One has to blame Ricciardi and Paul Godfrey for the present awful Blue
> Jays club, which should end up in the AL East basement this year.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

proteus the profound wrote:
( snip)

But you also want several good prospects on these teams performing well.
The Yankees and Red Sox, who always draft lower than the Jays, always
seem to have more prospects. Their senior farm clubs invariably are
better than the those of the Jays.


Their scouts also perform better. For example when the Jays were going
after Troy Glaus (who has now been replaced by Rolen) the Red Sox picked
up Mike Lowell who this year has 13 home runs and 63 rbi's, more than
any Jay player. When the Blue Jays signed Lyle Overbay the Red Sox got
Kevin Youklis who now has 20 homers and 75 rbis, again more than any Jay
player in 2008. The Jays forked out millions for an over-the-hill Frank
Thomas as a DH whereas the Red Sox signed David Ortiz whom no one had
heard of, from the White Sox. Again this shows us that the Red Sox front
office has been much smarter than that of the Jays.
One has to blame Ricciardi and Paul Godfrey for the present awful Blue
Jays club, which should end up in the AL East basement this year.

Reply>
You know I start reading your posts and
think at first there may be some merit and
logic in what you start out to say,then you
continually shoot yourself in the foot,much
the same way bk does as I see even he
has given you the big warning,about not
formating your posts and making it look
like he (bk) may have been misquoted.
heaven forbid.

For starters Rolen did not replace Troy
Glaus the same year as the Redsox
picked up Mike Lowell in the fire sale
the Marlins had dumping huge over
bloated salaries.ask the tigers how all
those big buck disasters are doing.
To his credit Lowell proved to be
a catalyst in helping the RS to win
a WS.

And Rolen may be one of the best 3rd
basemen to ever play for the jays bar
none,name one better if you can.And
you very seldom see any infielder hit
for power,yes there are exceptions
and at first base to,but in general most
infielders are picked for their d first.
Because the dp is the pitchers best
friend by far.A decent hitter is just
extra gravy and not the norm,

And Mike Lowell was battling cancer at
the time as well,but the red sox took a
flyer on him and his almost 10 mill
contract.and btw Delgado was a Jay
at the time and was sucking up 2/3
of the entire payday.The rsox needed
a third bagger to replace the obvious
deficiencies of Kevin the mental case
Youkolis.Even a chimp can play first
base and hit for reasonable average.but
he his certainly no gold glover or silver
slugger.And the jays would have been
down right stupid to replace Delgado
for Youklois.
Unless of course if Carlos wasn't whining
and waveing his no trade clause around
while sucking up all that hefty US coin.

The jays may have been able to dump
his sorry ass for some real value,the
marlins made some nice hay with him.

And fyi Youkolis was drafted in the 8th
round 235th,not exactly your top drawer
draft pick.

Next Mr. Wizard you tell us that David
Ortiz was snatched up by the Red Sox
from the White sox..uh excuse me but
he was initially picked by the M's and
played all of about 8 games with them
and released and the Twins picked
him up for the price of a happy meal
as did the Rsox when the twins released
him a few years later not the Wsox..duhhh

And made him their dh,after they tried to
pry the big hurt from the A's a few years
after the jays ended up with Frank at
the butt end of his career,agreed not a smooth move,but it was more to
sell
tickets than anything else,future HOFer.

Now your rant on the O-dog yes
he was a fan fave,but the jays needed
a third bagger to replace Hillenbrand,
and at the time Troy was the best available unless you could afford more
than the whole team was making for
A-rod and they needed to dump batista
who nosed dive faster than a lead glider.
and with Aron Hill waiting in the wings
why not O-dog.

Both teams benefited fairly equaly,except
the d backs got stuck with batista and
the jays ended up with rolen in the end,
and you got to kidding about Luna playing
in place of Rolen aren't you?

That would be about the same thing as
Zaun,being the every day closer.

Lets look at O-dogs numbers to Hill's
both players last full season stats with
the jays...

Odog Hill
avg-270 291
obp-305 333
slg-405 459
hr-10 17
ebh-30 57
rs-62 86
rbi's-65 78
thits-125 165

Lets not forget the jays had one of thier
worst years in two decades in 04 when
odog was the every day 2nd bagger.

Personally I would take the combo of
Hill And Johny Mac anyday on just their
d alone.

As far as smarts goes the very same Rox
your compareing the jays brass to picked
up Eric(plodding oaf)Hinske among other
duds.and yes it would be great to be able
to buy the likes of a-rod,but then whats
left over to pay the rest of a team.??

And Granted I am certainly no fan of jp's
but at least try and get your facts strate
before you try and sound so profound and
and take the smack talk from air head
broadcasters on fox sports as gospel.
sheeish