"Rick Baldwin" <fast84montess@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12132-48193467-20545@baytvnwsxa002.msntv.msn.com...
> and the reds front office let another one get away.dont get me wrong,I
> do like the player they got for him but damn,he was worth Dunn and any
> other platooner combined.sure...they were scared of his possible career
> threatening injury I would be too,but look at all the money they(the
> last owners) wasted on Paul Wilson. What was Hamilton getting?$400,000
> per? Now that is a much better risk to take.Oh this just in,Hamilton
> hits a grand slam and has 6 HR's for the Rangers.Let's see...that gives
> him 31 RBI's for the season.

Hey Rick, what's the Rangers record with that stud in the lineup?

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481b91bd$0$3350$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Rick Baldwin" <fast84montess@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:12132-48193467-20545@baytvnwsxa002.msntv.msn.com...
>> and the reds front office let another one get away.dont get me wrong,I
>> do like the player they got for him but damn,he was worth Dunn and any
>> other platooner combined.sure...they were scared of his possible career
>> threatening injury I would be too,but look at all the money they(the
>> last owners) wasted on Paul Wilson. What was Hamilton getting?$400,000
>> per? Now that is a much better risk to take.Oh this just in,Hamilton
>> hits a grand slam and has 6 HR's for the Rangers.Let's see...that gives
>> him 31 RBI's for the season.
>
> Hey Rick, what's the Rangers record with that stud in the lineup?

What's the Reds' record with the $13MIL Adam Dunn in the lineup?

Volquez is a great acquisition. Maybe a competent GM could have found a way
to get him rather than trading the team's best player, who was being paid
$390K.

You win with pitching, at least that's what ESPN tells you to think. You
can have Cy Young, but you still have to score a fucking run to win.

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:zKSdnVmTipx7P4HVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:481b91bd$0$3350$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> "Rick Baldwin" <fast84montess@webtv.net> wrote in message
>> news:12132-48193467-20545@baytvnwsxa002.msntv.msn.com...
>>> and the reds front office let another one get away.dont get me wrong,I
>>> do like the player they got for him but damn,he was worth Dunn and any
>>> other platooner combined.sure...they were scared of his possible career
>>> threatening injury I would be too,but look at all the money they(the
>>> last owners) wasted on Paul Wilson. What was Hamilton getting?$400,000
>>> per? Now that is a much better risk to take.Oh this just in,Hamilton
>>> hits a grand slam and has 6 HR's for the Rangers.Let's see...that gives
>>> him 31 RBI's for the season.
>>
>> Hey Rick, what's the Rangers record with that stud in the lineup?
>
> What's the Reds' record with the $13MIL Adam Dunn in the lineup?

The Reds are 12-18, but I'm not sure how Dunn is relevant here. The Rangers
didn't want him for Volquez.

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481ca7cc$0$31717$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
> news:zKSdnVmTipx7P4HVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>> "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:481b91bd$0$3350$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> "Rick Baldwin" <fast84montess@webtv.net> wrote in message
>>> news:12132-48193467-20545@baytvnwsxa002.msntv.msn.com...
>>>> and the reds front office let another one get away.dont get me wrong,I
>>>> do like the player they got for him but damn,he was worth Dunn and any
>>>> other platooner combined.sure...they were scared of his possible career
>>>> threatening injury I would be too,but look at all the money they(the
>>>> last owners) wasted on Paul Wilson. What was Hamilton getting?$400,000
>>>> per? Now that is a much better risk to take.Oh this just in,Hamilton
>>>> hits a grand slam and has 6 HR's for the Rangers.Let's see...that gives
>>>> him 31 RBI's for the season.
>>>
>>> Hey Rick, what's the Rangers record with that stud in the lineup?
>>
>> What's the Reds' record with the $13MIL Adam Dunn in the lineup?
>
> The Reds are 12-18, but I'm not sure how Dunn is relevant here. The
> Rangers didn't want him for Volquez.

Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't even
bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle pitches,
and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him an absolute
no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed his nose at
minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches like an
elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class that approaches
Albert Pujols.

The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF, Hamilton in
CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace pitcher to
this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the "cheap
kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will fall into
perpetual rebuild.

Absolutely no disrespect to Volquez. I think it was great that they got
him. I think it was wise to seek him. I just wouldn't have traded Hamilton
for him then, and I wouldn't today or next week.

The ONLY reason to have let go of Josh Hamilton, is if there was some hint
that he may be weakening to his demons.

Incidentally, I sent an email to Kevin before Josh Hamilton played his first
major league game. I told him that I scouted Hamilton for the better part
of three weeks, and he was special.

I didn't want Dusty Baker as a Reds manager. Bad fit. Horrific fit! But,
little of this is his fault. That roster is garbage. Wayne Krivsky made
some bad decisions. Was he better than O'Brien? Probably, but the bar was
pretty low.

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't even
> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him an
> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed his
> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class that
> approaches Albert Pujols.
.....a unique talent.

> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF, Hamilton
> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace pitcher
> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will fall
> into perpetual rebuild.

You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was to
win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or Dunn
and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his job.

> Absolutely no disrespect to Volquez. I think it was great that they got
> him. I think it was wise to seek him. I just wouldn't have traded
> Hamilton for him then, and I wouldn't today or next week.
>
> The ONLY reason to have let go of Josh Hamilton, is if there was some hint
> that he may be weakening to his demons.
>
> Incidentally, I sent an email to Kevin before Josh Hamilton played his
> first major league game. I told him that I scouted Hamilton for the
> better part of three weeks, and he was special.
>
> I didn't want Dusty Baker as a Reds manager. Bad fit. Horrific fit!
> But, little of this is his fault. That roster is garbage. Wayne Krivsky
> made some bad decisions. Was he better than O'Brien? Probably, but the
> bar was pretty low.

You know I thought more of Bowden than most. I didn't care much for O'Brien
and I was pretty strong on Krivsky.

I think Jocketty is going to be a disaster. I really do. I hope I'm wrong.

Welcome back. BTW. Missed your voice during the start of the season.

dfs

"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>> even
>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him an
>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed his
>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class that
>> approaches Albert Pujols.
> ....a unique talent.
>
>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF, Hamilton
>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace pitcher
>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>> fall
>> into perpetual rebuild.
>
> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was to
> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or Dunn
> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
> job.

This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none of
them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever it
is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after this
year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to replace
his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone could
have seen that after last year.

Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time. This
doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.

If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games possibly
won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
against lefties.

As for next year, Griffey and Dunn do need to go. These are guys who aren't
capable of carrying a team. They're streaky, and they're cold for long
periods of time. We're in need of someone more consistent who can help us
on a daily basis. Bruce can take RF and they're gonna have to sign someone
to play LF with some pop from the right side. I have no idea what to do
about CF.

On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
wrote:

>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>> even
>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him an
>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed his
>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class that
>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>> ....a unique talent.
>>
>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF, Hamilton
>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace pitcher
>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>> fall
>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>
>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was to
>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or Dunn
>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
>> job.
>
>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none of
>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever it
>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after this
>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to replace
>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone could
>have seen that after last year.

Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.

>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time. This
>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>
>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games possibly
>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>against lefties.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
to find.

********************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Courage, the footstool of the Virtues, upon
which they stand." ~Robert Louis Stevenson
********************************************************************

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?

> I didn't want Dusty Baker as a Reds manager. Bad fit. Horrific
> fit! But, little of this is his fault.

Sorry, but running Patterson out there in the leadoff spot is
suicidal. It's criminally stupid, are you listening? It affects the
entire offense. His CAREER on-base percentage is only .297, and he's
not even close to THAT this year. Even if he was it would be a stupid
move.

I don't necessarily have a big problem with playing the guy, if you
like his defense or whatever, want Bruce to acquire some more
seasoning first, OK fine. But leading off Patterson is a shooting
offense in my book. I don't care how fast he is. I've said it before,
how fast do you have to be to walk back to the dugout?

You've got a no-hit defensive CF, you bat him 8th or something. You
don't fucking lead him off. It's insane and I don't understand why
there isn't more outrage over it. It has a major affect on the whole
top half of the lineup. Think about it.

--
Cheers,
--Jeff
Let's Go Orange!

"Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A93B717F903BClockwork@72.52.237.249...
> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>
>> I didn't want Dusty Baker as a Reds manager. Bad fit. Horrific
>> fit! But, little of this is his fault.
>
> Sorry, but running Patterson out there in the leadoff spot is
> suicidal. It's criminally stupid, are you listening? It affects the
> entire offense. His CAREER on-base percentage is only .297, and he's
> not even close to THAT this year. Even if he was it would be a stupid
> move.
>
> I don't necessarily have a big problem with playing the guy, if you
> like his defense or whatever, want Bruce to acquire some more
> seasoning first, OK fine. But leading off Patterson is a shooting
> offense in my book. I don't care how fast he is. I've said it before,
> how fast do you have to be to walk back to the dugout?

I agree. If they want him to patrol CF, then bat him 7th and let him
produce from a power perspective because he's certainly not going to do so
from his OBP. He'll hit 20 homers and drive in 80 runs.

> You've got a no-hit defensive CF, you bat him 8th or something. You
> don't fucking lead him off. It's insane and I don't understand why
> there isn't more outrage over it. It has a major affect on the whole
> top half of the lineup. Think about it.

There's plenty of outrage over it. On the radio and on blogs. The writers
are too wimpy to ask the manager about it, but they know it too. Fay and
McCoy have both mentioned it.

--

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481cd852$0$5133$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
> news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>> even
>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him an
>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed his
>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class that
>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>> ....a unique talent.
>>
>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF, Hamilton
>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace pitcher
>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>> fall
>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>
>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was to
>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>> Dunn
>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
>> job.
>
> This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
> Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none of
> them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
> doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever it
> is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after this
> year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
> replace his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure
> anyone could have seen that after last year.
>
> Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time. This
> doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>
> If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games possibly
> won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
> rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
> acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
> against lefties.
>
> As for next year, Griffey and Dunn do need to go. These are guys who
> aren't capable of carrying a team. They're streaky, and they're cold for
> long periods of time. We're in need of someone more consistent who can
> help us on a daily basis. Bruce can take RF and they're gonna have to
> sign someone to play LF with some pop from the right side. I have no idea
> what to do about CF.

I guess I need to clear a couple of things. I don't dislike Griffey or
Dunn. You said it right above, next year they will be gone. You can see
that, I can see that, so jump the gate, run through 2008 with the kids
getting their swings, and be closer to a winner in 2009.

Again, Volquez was a great acquisition. Dealing Josh Hamilton was a
horrible way to get him.

I don't know for certain that Texas wouldn't have structured a deal for
Dunn. He's a Texas guy. Hopefully they could see his worth. Last time I
checked, despite his other numbers, his OBP was very high.

--

"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>> even
>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him an
>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed his
>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class that
>> approaches Albert Pujols.
> ....a unique talent.
>
>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF, Hamilton
>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace pitcher
>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>> fall
>> into perpetual rebuild.
>
> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was to
> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or Dunn
> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
> job.

I've said before, Uncle Bob has more dollars than sense.

>> Absolutely no disrespect to Volquez. I think it was great that they got
>> him. I think it was wise to seek him. I just wouldn't have traded
>> Hamilton for him then, and I wouldn't today or next week.
>>
>> The ONLY reason to have let go of Josh Hamilton, is if there was some
>> hint
>> that he may be weakening to his demons.
>>
>> Incidentally, I sent an email to Kevin before Josh Hamilton played his
>> first major league game. I told him that I scouted Hamilton for the
>> better part of three weeks, and he was special.
>>
>> I didn't want Dusty Baker as a Reds manager. Bad fit. Horrific fit!
>> But, little of this is his fault. That roster is garbage. Wayne Krivsky
>> made some bad decisions. Was he better than O'Brien? Probably, but the
>> bar was pretty low.
>
> You know I thought more of Bowden than most. I didn't care much for
> O'Brien
> and I was pretty strong on Krivsky.
>
> I think Jocketty is going to be a disaster. I really do. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm scared of Jocketty. I never bought into Wayne Krivsky, but that whole
deal of letting him go was mishandled. The handwriting was on the wall when
they say Jocketty over his shoulder.

>
> Welcome back. BTW. Missed your voice during the start of the season.
>
> dfs

Thank you! I had a little time to sit down in front of the computer. Our
business continues to escalate. I feel fortunate, especially in this
economy.

--

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>>> even
>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him
>>>> an
>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed
>>>> his
>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>> that
>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>
>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>> Hamilton
>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>> pitcher
>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>>> fall
>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>
>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was
>>> to
>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>>> Dunn
>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
>>> job.
>>
>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none of
>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever it
>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after this
>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>replace
>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone could
>>have seen that after last year.
>
> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>
>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time. This
>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>
>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games possibly
>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>against lefties.
>
> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
> to find.
>

Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
Hamilton has even done so far?

"Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A93B717F903BClockwork@72.52.237.249...
> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>
>> I didn't want Dusty Baker as a Reds manager. Bad fit. Horrific
>> fit! But, little of this is his fault.
>
> Sorry, but running Patterson out there in the leadoff spot is
> suicidal. It's criminally stupid, are you listening? It affects the
> entire offense. His CAREER on-base percentage is only .297, and he's
> not even close to THAT this year. Even if he was it would be a stupid
> move.
>
> I don't necessarily have a big problem with playing the guy, if you
> like his defense or whatever, want Bruce to acquire some more
> seasoning first, OK fine. But leading off Patterson is a shooting
> offense in my book. I don't care how fast he is. I've said it before,
> how fast do you have to be to walk back to the dugout?
>
> You've got a no-hit defensive CF, you bat him 8th or something. You
> don't fucking lead him off. It's insane and I don't understand why
> there isn't more outrage over it. It has a major affect on the whole
> top half of the lineup. Think about it.
>

He shouldn't even be on the team!

But blaming this team's woes on the leadoff spot? I guess you could
rearrange the deck chairs.....

Screw winning anyway, Jr. is about to reach 600!

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:KMWdnechZ_f_coDVnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> --
>
> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>>>> even
>>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him
>>>>> an
>>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed
>>>>> his
>>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled
>>>>> pitches
>>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>>> that
>>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>>
>>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>>> Hamilton
>>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>>> pitcher
>>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>>>> fall
>>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>>
>>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was
>>>> to
>>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>>>> Dunn
>>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
>>>> job.
>>>
>>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none
>>>of
>>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
>>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever
>>>it
>>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after this
>>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>>replace
>>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone
>>>could
>>>have seen that after last year.
>>
>> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>>
>>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time. This
>>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>>
>>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games
>>>possibly
>>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
>>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>>against lefties.
>>
>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>> to find.
>>
>
> Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
> Hamilton has even done so far?

Volquez has the potential to be a dominant ace. Hamilton has the potential
to be great as well. If we assume that they keep doing what they're doing,
would you rather have Pedro Martinez in his prime or a .290, 35 HR, 125 RBI
guy? Come playoff time, I'd want the former. Apparently some guys in the
clubhouse weren't too fond of the attention that Hamilton was getting. I
recall Phillips saying something to the media about it as well, and they
also don't think he's going to hold up for very long after the damage that
drugs have done to his body, at least that's what Jeff Brantley has said on
numerous occasions. Perhaps he has talked to some people in the know.

--

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481dfabb$0$31736$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
> news:KMWdnechZ_f_coDVnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled
>>>>>> pitches
>>>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>>>> Hamilton
>>>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>>>> pitcher
>>>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>>>>> fall
>>>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was
>>>>> to
>>>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>>>>> Dunn
>>>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep
>>>>> his
>>>>> job.
>>>>
>>>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>>>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none
>>>>of
>>>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
>>>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever
>>>>it
>>>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after
>>>>this
>>>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>>>replace
>>>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone
>>>>could
>>>>have seen that after last year.
>>>
>>> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>>>
>>>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time.
>>>>This
>>>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>>>
>>>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games
>>>>possibly
>>>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
>>>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>>>against lefties.
>>>
>>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>>> to find.
>>>
>>
>> Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>> Hamilton has even done so far?
>
> Volquez has the potential to be a dominant ace. Hamilton has the
> potential to be great as well. If we assume that they keep doing what
> they're doing, would you rather have Pedro Martinez in his prime or a
> .290, 35 HR, 125 RBI guy? Come playoff time, I'd want the former.
> Apparently some guys in the clubhouse weren't too fond of the attention
> that Hamilton was getting. I recall Phillips saying something to the
> media about it as well, and they also don't think he's going to hold up
> for very long after the damage that drugs have done to his body, at least
> that's what Jeff Brantley has said on numerous occasions. Perhaps he has
> talked to some people in the know.

Boo hoo. I'm not fond of Phillips and I won't even turn on the MLB feed to
listen to the know-it-all Brantley. Hell, with his baseball knowledge, I'm
surprised he ever surrendered a single hit.

Who is 'they', that have the knowledge of what the drugs have done?

I've already said, I wouldn't make the trade. Screw playoff time, given
what you know at this minute, would you rather have Martinez or Pujols?

Volquez has been good. He better be, you traded your best player for him.
Your best player that was earning 390K.

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:6dKdndDuHdsinYPVnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> --
>
> "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:481dfabb$0$31736$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
>> news:KMWdnechZ_f_coDVnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>>>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>>>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL.
>>>>>>> Don't
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made
>>>>>>> him an
>>>>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled
>>>>>>> pitches
>>>>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>>>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>>>>> Hamilton
>>>>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>>>>> pitcher
>>>>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> fall
>>>>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner
>>>>>> was to
>>>>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>>>>>> Dunn
>>>>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>>>>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none
>>>>>of
>>>>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and
>>>>>I
>>>>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever
>>>>>it
>>>>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after
>>>>>this
>>>>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>>>>replace
>>>>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone
>>>>>could
>>>>>have seen that after last year.
>>>>
>>>> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>>>>
>>>>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time.
>>>>>This
>>>>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games
>>>>>possibly
>>>>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching.
>>>>>I'd
>>>>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>>>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>>>>against lefties.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>>>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>>>> to find.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>> Hamilton has even done so far?
>>
>> Volquez has the potential to be a dominant ace. Hamilton has the
>> potential to be great as well. If we assume that they keep doing what
>> they're doing, would you rather have Pedro Martinez in his prime or a
>> .290, 35 HR, 125 RBI guy? Come playoff time, I'd want the former.
>> Apparently some guys in the clubhouse weren't too fond of the attention
>> that Hamilton was getting. I recall Phillips saying something to the
>> media about it as well, and they also don't think he's going to hold up
>> for very long after the damage that drugs have done to his body, at least
>> that's what Jeff Brantley has said on numerous occasions. Perhaps he has
>> talked to some people in the know.
>
> Boo hoo. I'm not fond of Phillips and I won't even turn on the MLB feed
> to listen to the know-it-all Brantley. Hell, with his baseball knowledge,
> I'm surprised he ever surrendered a single hit.
>
> Who is 'they', that have the knowledge of what the drugs have done?
>
> I've already said, I wouldn't make the trade. Screw playoff time, given
> what you know at this minute, would you rather have Martinez or Pujols?
>
> Volquez has been good. He better be, you traded your best player for him.
> Your best player that was earning 390K

Here's the bottom line for me. Krivsky said Texas would only trade Volquez
for Hamilton. I find that logical and understandable. I'd rather have
Volquez than Hamilton due to pitching being a rare commodity. That being
the case, I'm happy with the move, so I'll shutup let some others chime in.

--

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481e0528$0$31734$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
> news:6dKdndDuHdsinYPVnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:481dfabb$0$31736$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:KMWdnechZ_f_coDVnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>>>>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL.
>>>>>>>> Don't
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>>>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made
>>>>>>>> him an
>>>>>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally
>>>>>>>> thumbed his
>>>>>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled
>>>>>>>> pitches
>>>>>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>>>>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>>>>>> Hamilton
>>>>>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>>>>>> pitcher
>>>>>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> fall
>>>>>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner
>>>>>>> was to
>>>>>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior
>>>>>>> or Dunn
>>>>>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but
>>>>>>none of
>>>>>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or
>>>>>>whatever it
>>>>>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>>>>>replace
>>>>>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone
>>>>>>could
>>>>>>have seen that after last year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time.
>>>>>>This
>>>>>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games
>>>>>>possibly
>>>>>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching.
>>>>>>I'd
>>>>>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>>>>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>>>>>against lefties.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are
>>>>> equally
>>>>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much
>>>>> harder
>>>>> to find.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>> Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>
>>> Volquez has the potential to be a dominant ace. Hamilton has the
>>> potential to be great as well. If we assume that they keep doing what
>>> they're doing, would you rather have Pedro Martinez in his prime or a
>>> .290, 35 HR, 125 RBI guy? Come playoff time, I'd want the former.
>>> Apparently some guys in the clubhouse weren't too fond of the attention
>>> that Hamilton was getting. I recall Phillips saying something to the
>>> media about it as well, and they also don't think he's going to hold up
>>> for very long after the damage that drugs have done to his body, at
>>> least that's what Jeff Brantley has said on numerous occasions. Perhaps
>>> he has talked to some people in the know.
>>
>> Boo hoo. I'm not fond of Phillips and I won't even turn on the MLB feed
>> to listen to the know-it-all Brantley. Hell, with his baseball
>> knowledge, I'm surprised he ever surrendered a single hit.
>>
>> Who is 'they', that have the knowledge of what the drugs have done?
>>
>> I've already said, I wouldn't make the trade. Screw playoff time, given
>> what you know at this minute, would you rather have Martinez or Pujols?
>>
>> Volquez has been good. He better be, you traded your best player for
>> him. Your best player that was earning 390K
>
> Here's the bottom line for me. Krivsky said Texas would only trade
> Volquez for Hamilton. I find that logical and understandable. I'd rather
> have Volquez than Hamilton due to pitching being a rare commodity. That
> being the case, I'm happy with the move, so I'll shutup let some others
> chime in.

I'm unhappy with the move, and said so the day it was made.

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481dfabb$0$31736$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

> Apparently some guys in the clubhouse weren't too fond of the attention
> that Hamilton was getting. I recall Phillips saying something to the
> media about it as well,

Just FWIW Brandon Phillips should learn to keep his mouth shut.

He also had not very nice things to say about Narron when he left.

Over the off season he said he wanted to end his career in cincy just like
Morgan and Larkin.

To this point in his major league career Phillips has had one SLIGHTLY above
average year. By the same age, both Morgan and Larkin where perinial all
stars who were working on establishin their hall of fame cases.

......The way everybody else feels about Dunn and Junior? That's how I feel
about Brandon Phillips. Shut up. Produce for a couple of years and THEN open
your mouth to the press.

dfs

--

"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
news:fvl25c$cqr$1@posting.glorb.com...
> "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:481dfabb$0$31736$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>> Apparently some guys in the clubhouse weren't too fond of the attention
>> that Hamilton was getting. I recall Phillips saying something to the
>> media about it as well,
>
> Just FWIW Brandon Phillips should learn to keep his mouth shut.
>
> He also had not very nice things to say about Narron when he left.
>
> Over the off season he said he wanted to end his career in cincy just like
> Morgan and Larkin.
>
> To this point in his major league career Phillips has had one SLIGHTLY
> above
> average year. By the same age, both Morgan and Larkin where perinial all
> stars who were working on establishin their hall of fame cases.
>
> .....The way everybody else feels about Dunn and Junior? That's how I feel
> about Brandon Phillips. Shut up. Produce for a couple of years and THEN
> open
> your mouth to the press.
>
> dfs

I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they are not in
Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to try to open it up for the
kids. It is meant as no knock to either of those guys. It's just my
opinion. That's the way I would have chosen to build the Cincinnati Reds.
But now, we'll never know.

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?

> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
> either of those guys.

I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
movement.

So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421

--
Cheers,
--Jeff
Let's Go Orange!

On Sun, 4 May 2008 13:16:11 -0400, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:

>
>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>>>> even
>>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him
>>>>> an
>>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed
>>>>> his
>>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled pitches
>>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>>> that
>>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>>
>>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>>> Hamilton
>>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>>> pitcher
>>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids, the
>>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>>>> fall
>>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>>
>>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was
>>>> to
>>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>>>> Dunn
>>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep his
>>>> job.
>>>
>>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none of
>>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
>>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever it
>>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after this
>>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>>replace
>>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone could
>>>have seen that after last year.
>>
>> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>>
>>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time. This
>>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>>
>>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games possibly
>>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
>>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>>against lefties.
>>
>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>> to find.
>>
>
>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>Hamilton has even done so far?

The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single season
batting title.

I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but so
too are the risks.

********************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Courage, the footstool of the Virtues, upon
which they stand." ~Robert Louis Stevenson
********************************************************************

--

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ln7s14h1c2mf5tb62slmnst9c3m8ppkjvr@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 May 2008 13:16:11 -0400, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:m2np14h4j0r7ks4cvgaripgcuakusp53b2@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:22:58 -0400, "RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"David Short" <David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu> wrote in message
>>>>news:fvijve$sls$1@posting.glorb.com...
>>>>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> Hamilton will have better numbers than Dunn. 400K vs. $13MIL. Don't
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> bother think about the defensive aspect. Watching Hamilton handle
>>>>>> pitches, and drive the ball to the opposite field with power made him
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> absolute no-brainer. He abused himself for years, literally thumbed
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> nose at minor league baseball, jumped to the majors and handled
>>>>>> pitches
>>>>>> like an elite player. People just don't do that. He is in a class
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> approaches Albert Pujols.
>>>>> ....a unique talent.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The GM of the Reds chose the wrong path for 2008. Votto in LF,
>>>>>> Hamilton
>>>>>> in CF and Bruce in RF was the way to go for 2008. Adding an ace
>>>>>> pitcher
>>>>>> to this lineup was putting lipstick on a hog. Grow with the kids,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "cheap kids" in 2008, the future is bright. But again, the Reds will
>>>>>> fall
>>>>>> into perpetual rebuild.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can blame Krivsky all you want, but the mandate from the owner was
>>>>> to
>>>>> win NOW. He was in a position where he couldn't deal either Junior or
>>>>> Dunn
>>>>> and he needed to get a winning record on the books in order to keep
>>>>> his
>>>>> job.
>>>>
>>>>This is what I don't get. There are tons of people locally saying that
>>>>Krivsky should have gone young and/or traded Griffey and Dunn, but none
>>>>of
>>>>them will tell you who the takers were. Griffey is under contract and I
>>>>doubt any smart GM wanted an aging veteran for 12.5 million or whatever
>>>>it
>>>>is. They also know that he's got a 16.5 million dollar option after
>>>>this
>>>>year. Dunn could have been bought out, but who exactly was going to
>>>>replace
>>>>his numbers? I know he has sucked thus far, but I'm not sure anyone
>>>>could
>>>>have seen that after last year.
>>>
>>> Uh...I did. One of his biggest defenders saw it a mile away.
>>>
>>>>Bruce is hitting .307/.324 at AAA and striking out 1/4 of the time.
>>>>This
>>>>doesn't exactly say that he's going to tear up the majors just yet.
>>>>
>>>>If Hamilton was here, it may have been a wash. Couple more games
>>>>possibly
>>>>won due to offense, and a couple more lost due to lack of pitching. I'd
>>>>rather have the pitching in the long run. The offense is easier to
>>>>acquire/solve. Hamilton also adds to our lefthanded hitting struggles
>>>>against lefties.
>>>
>>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>>> to find.
>>>
>>
>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>
> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single season
> batting title.
>
> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but so
> too are the risks.
>

I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
would have rode out those risks.

"Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A94A1228F655Clockwork@72.52.237.249...
> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>
>> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
>> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
>> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
>> either of those guys.
>
> I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
> Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
> movement.
>
> So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:
>
> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
> AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
>

Can't access it. I'll try again later.

On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>
>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single season
>> batting title.
>>
>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but so
>> too are the risks.
>
>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
>would have rode out those risks.

I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of his
risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.

********************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Courage, the footstool of the Virtues, upon
which they stand." ~Robert Louis Stevenson
********************************************************************

On 5/4/2008 4:27 PM, Bob Braun wrote:

> "Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A94A1228F655Clockwork@72.52.237.249...
>> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>>
>>> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
>>> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
>>> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
>>> either of those guys.
>>
>> I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
>> Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
>> movement.
>>
>> So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:
>>
>> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
>> AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
>>
>
> Can't access it. I'll try again later.

The broken link didn't help.

Try this:
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
--
Steve
...............................
P R O J E C T - 4 3
http://www.project-43.com/
The Future of Classic Rock
...............................
Download the "Ticket to Infinity"
Now at your favorite download site!

--

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>
>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single season
>>> batting title.
>>>
>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but so
>>> too are the risks.
>>
>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
>>would have rode out those risks.
>
> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of his
> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>

Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the time
with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are the
odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could take
than that.

"Steve M. Mann" <rockermann@LOOSEITsteve-mann.com> wrote in message
news:481e3d82$0$4095$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> On 5/4/2008 4:27 PM, Bob Braun wrote:
>
>> "Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9A94A1228F655Clockwork@72.52.237.249...
>>> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>>>
>>>> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
>>>> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
>>>> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
>>>> either of those guys.
>>>
>>> I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
>>> Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
>>> movement.
>>>
>>> So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:
>>>
>>> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
>>> AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
>>>
>>
>> Can't access it. I'll try again later.
>
> The broken link didn't help.
>
> Try this:
> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
> --
> Steve

Thank you Steve. I added that part that was left out of the link. I
couldn't get on any page of the Enquirer. I'll try again.

On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:58 -0400, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:

>
>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>>
>>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single season
>>>> batting title.
>>>>
>>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but so
>>>> too are the risks.
>>>
>>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
>>>would have rode out those risks.
>>
>> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of his
>> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>
>Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the time
>with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are the
>odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
>season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could take
>than that.

Why would I say such a thing? Because it's what I believe.

He severely abused his body in ways far beyond what most any other Major
Leaguer can even imagine. Regardless of the reason, he didn't even make
it through his first ML season without missing a big batch of time.
Let's see if he can at least make it through one season before we assume
him to be some sort of an iron man.

Like I said, I understand he has a high upside, but I think you're being
blind to his risks...and talking down to anyone who dares to raise them.

********************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Courage, the footstool of the Virtues, upon
which they stand." ~Robert Louis Stevenson
********************************************************************

--

"Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A94A1228F655Clockwork@72.52.237.249...
> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>
>> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
>> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
>> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
>> either of those guys.
>
> I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
> Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
> movement.
>
> So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:
>
> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
> AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
>
> --

Read it..........yup!

But, you are closing the barn door after the prize thoroughbred got out. It
should have been done between the 2007 and '08 seasons with JH anchoring
your lineup in CF. You notice that Doc says Phillips is the best hitter?
That couldn't be said with Hamilton on the roster. Maybe that was the root
of Phillips' comments. With Hamilton out of the way, Phillips could be the
stud and lock up the big contract.

It could have all been avoided with the proper decision making. If Uncle
Bob caused Krivsky to make those choices, then shame on him.

I've said for two years that I appreciate Adam Dunn, but that he's a luxury
the Cincinnati Reds cannot afford.

What's done is done. Or is it what's done is Dunn? I see him going in fire
sale, as a opposed to bringing something back the other way. That's a
shame. And that's mismanagement.

--

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:t1gs1456lduhg633tkafanub92qutj9274@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:58 -0400, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>>>
>>>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single
>>>>> season
>>>>> batting title.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but
>>>>> so
>>>>> too are the risks.
>>>>
>>>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
>>>>would have rode out those risks.
>>>
>>> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of his
>>> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>>
>>Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the
>>time
>>with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are the
>>odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
>>season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could
>>take
>>than that.
>
> Why would I say such a thing? Because it's what I believe.
>
> He severely abused his body in ways far beyond what most any other Major
> Leaguer can even imagine. Regardless of the reason, he didn't even make
> it through his first ML season without missing a big batch of time.
> Let's see if he can at least make it through one season before we assume
> him to be some sort of an iron man.
>
> Like I said, I understand he has a high upside, but I think you're being
> blind to his risks...and talking down to anyone who dares to raise them.
>

I'm not blind to them at all. His salary washes any and all risks. At what
he was being paid, you had more than ample time to assess the risk before
diving into any big money contract with him.

I won't touch the part about Major Leaguers and substance abuse.

I'm trying to make it clear that I'm not a Hamilton bandwagoner. It was
clear to me in spring '07 that this guy could handle any pitch and drive it.
I saw him hit one over the 'green monster', and an opposite field grand slam
the past few days. He's not going to stay this hot, he's human. He's
human, but possesses some top notch hitting skills.

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:cYmdnRfKMqVQ2YPVnZ2dnUVZ_vyinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> --
>
> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:t1gs1456lduhg633tkafanub92qutj9274@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:58 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>>>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single
>>>>>> season
>>>>>> batting title.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> too are the risks.
>>>>>
>>>>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>>>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
>>>>>would have rode out those risks.
>>>>
>>>> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of
>>>> his
>>>> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>>>
>>>Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the
>>>time
>>>with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are
>>>the
>>>odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
>>>season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could
>>>take
>>>than that.
>>
>> Why would I say such a thing? Because it's what I believe.
>>
>> He severely abused his body in ways far beyond what most any other Major
>> Leaguer can even imagine. Regardless of the reason, he didn't even make
>> it through his first ML season without missing a big batch of time.
>> Let's see if he can at least make it through one season before we assume
>> him to be some sort of an iron man.
>>
>> Like I said, I understand he has a high upside, but I think you're being
>> blind to his risks...and talking down to anyone who dares to raise them.
>>
>
> I'm not blind to them at all. His salary washes any and all risks. At
> what he was being paid, you had more than ample time to assess the risk
> before diving into any big money contract with him.

The thing you're missing here is that the perceived risks were what aided
the decision to deal him for Volquez. If they felt like Volquez was going
to be a stud, and they felt like Hamilton could turn out to be a brittle
player, then you make the deal.

On Sun, 4 May 2008 19:20:38 -0400, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:

>
>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:t1gs1456lduhg633tkafanub92qutj9274@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:58 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what Josh
>>>>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>>>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single
>>>>>> season
>>>>>> batting title.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> too are the risks.
>>>>>
>>>>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>>>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K I
>>>>>would have rode out those risks.
>>>>
>>>> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of his
>>>> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>>>
>>>Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the
>>>time
>>>with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are the
>>>odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
>>>season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could
>>>take
>>>than that.
>>
>> Why would I say such a thing? Because it's what I believe.
>>
>> He severely abused his body in ways far beyond what most any other Major
>> Leaguer can even imagine. Regardless of the reason, he didn't even make
>> it through his first ML season without missing a big batch of time.
>> Let's see if he can at least make it through one season before we assume
>> him to be some sort of an iron man.
>>
>> Like I said, I understand he has a high upside, but I think you're being
>> blind to his risks...and talking down to anyone who dares to raise them.
>
>I'm not blind to them at all. His salary washes any and all risks. At what
>he was being paid, you had more than ample time to assess the risk before
>diving into any big money contract with him.

And if they'd just dumped him for the sake of dumping him that would be
of more concern to me, but they flipped him for a guy who's been their
best starter so far and has a pretty big upside himself...where quality
is even harder to find.

>I won't touch the part about Major Leaguers and substance abuse.

I am going to assume there aren't a lot of crack addicts in the bigs,
but I could be wrong, I guess.

>I'm trying to make it clear that I'm not a Hamilton bandwagoner. It was
>clear to me in spring '07 that this guy could handle any pitch and drive it.
>I saw him hit one over the 'green monster', and an opposite field grand slam
>the past few days. He's not going to stay this hot, he's human. He's
>human, but possesses some top notch hitting skills.

Oh, no question you were touting him almost right from the start.

********************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Courage, the footstool of the Virtues, upon
which they stand." ~Robert Louis Stevenson
********************************************************************

--

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481e51a6$0$3387$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
> news:cYmdnRfKMqVQ2YPVnZ2dnUVZ_vyinZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:t1gs1456lduhg633tkafanub92qutj9274@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:58 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what
>>>>>>>>Josh
>>>>>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>>>>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single
>>>>>>> season
>>>>>>> batting title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> too are the risks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>>>>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>would have rode out those risks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of
>>>>> his
>>>>> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>>>>
>>>>Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the
>>>>time
>>>>with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are
>>>>the
>>>>odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
>>>>season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could
>>>>take
>>>>than that.
>>>
>>> Why would I say such a thing? Because it's what I believe.
>>>
>>> He severely abused his body in ways far beyond what most any other Major
>>> Leaguer can even imagine. Regardless of the reason, he didn't even make
>>> it through his first ML season without missing a big batch of time.
>>> Let's see if he can at least make it through one season before we assume
>>> him to be some sort of an iron man.
>>>
>>> Like I said, I understand he has a high upside, but I think you're being
>>> blind to his risks...and talking down to anyone who dares to raise them.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not blind to them at all. His salary washes any and all risks. At
>> what he was being paid, you had more than ample time to assess the risk
>> before diving into any big money contract with him.
>
> The thing you're missing here is that the perceived risks were what aided
> the decision to deal him for Volquez. If they felt like Volquez was going
> to be a stud, and they felt like Hamilton could turn out to be a brittle
> player, then you make the deal.
>

And the guy who decided that..................lost his job. What did Wayne
Krivsky accomplish in 2008? As of today, he assembled the worst team in
Major League Baseball.

I'm not missing a thing. His skills vs. his risks, under that price tag, no
brainer.

--

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osjs1418umv6o958juotpj7jba7q2m83kp@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 May 2008 19:20:38 -0400, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:t1gs1456lduhg633tkafanub92qutj9274@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:58 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:5mbs141fhh5728int15r5oqv62ro77p2v2@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 4 May 2008 17:23:27 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Good pitchers are hard to find. But how many people can do what
>>>>>>>>Josh
>>>>>>>>Hamilton has even done so far?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The horizon is littered with guys who excelled in limited time. Josh
>>>>>>> Hamilton still doesn't have enough ML PAs to qualify for a single
>>>>>>> season
>>>>>>> batting title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm certainly not suggesting that the ceiling isn't high on him, but
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> too are the risks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can't argue the demons in his past. But his mechanics and plate
>>>>>>discipline are far beyond his years of age and experience. For $390K
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>would have rode out those risks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the demons and any threat of some sort of relapse are one of
>>>>> his
>>>>> risks, and the other main risk is durability, in my onion.
>>>>
>>>>Why in the world would you say such a thing? He missed the bulk of the
>>>>time
>>>>with a horrible stomach virus which reportedly weakened him. What are
>>>>the
>>>>odds of that reoccurring? He missed part of his one whole major league
>>>>season. He makes $390K. I'm not sure how much less risk a team could
>>>>take
>>>>than that.
>>>
>>> Why would I say such a thing? Because it's what I believe.
>>>
>>> He severely abused his body in ways far beyond what most any other Major
>>> Leaguer can even imagine. Regardless of the reason, he didn't even make
>>> it through his first ML season without missing a big batch of time.
>>> Let's see if he can at least make it through one season before we assume
>>> him to be some sort of an iron man.
>>>
>>> Like I said, I understand he has a high upside, but I think you're being
>>> blind to his risks...and talking down to anyone who dares to raise them.
>>
>>I'm not blind to them at all. His salary washes any and all risks. At
>>what
>>he was being paid, you had more than ample time to assess the risk before
>>diving into any big money contract with him.
>
> And if they'd just dumped him for the sake of dumping him that would be
> of more concern to me, but they flipped him for a guy who's been their
> best starter so far and has a pretty big upside himself...where quality
> is even harder to find.
>
>>I won't touch the part about Major Leaguers and substance abuse.
>
> I am going to assume there aren't a lot of crack addicts in the bigs,
> but I could be wrong, I guess.
>
>>I'm trying to make it clear that I'm not a Hamilton bandwagoner. It was
>>clear to me in spring '07 that this guy could handle any pitch and drive
>>it.
>>I saw him hit one over the 'green monster', and an opposite field grand
>>slam
>>the past few days. He's not going to stay this hot, he's human. He's
>>human, but possesses some top notch hitting skills.
>
> Oh, no question you were touting him almost right from the start.
>

Thank you. Not seeking credit. I just don't want to appear to jump the
bandwagon. I was doing some catch up reading, this thread caught my eye. I
saw the Danny Graves reference! :) Geez that seems like a long time ago.

You know that I love to study players. I was awed by this Hamilton kid and
I still am. I really wanted to spend another spring watching him closely to
see what has changed after he spent some time in the Big Leagues.

I guess the question is now, what's the best route for turning the Reds into
a winner. I didn't see as much of ST this year. What I did see of Bruce, I
was a little disappointed in his pop. The ball was not exploding off his
bat.

He didn't look bad by any means. In the outfield, he was very smooth.

Aside............I hooked up with a Juco guy. He has me trouble shoot
hitters who have taken mysterious dips. These are guys that know how to
hit. I go watch them for a bit, talk to them a bit, discuss what's going
through their heads at the plate, and if need be, help them make some minor
adjustments. It doesn't lock me into a permanent deal, yet lets me keep a
connection to the game. I am having some success, and loving it. Probably
less than 10% of the stuff that I have found has been mechanical. We can
usually discuss approach, and they make me look good!

Sarasota shit in their hats letting the Reds get away. Now I think they
will luck out, and end up getting the Red Sox.

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:9OmdncQr555234PVnZ2dnUVZ_vmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> --
>
> "Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A94A1228F655Clockwork@72.52.237.249...
>> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>>
>>> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
>>> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
>>> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
>>> either of those guys.
>>
>> I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
>> Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
>> movement.
>>
>> So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:
>>
>> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
>> AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
>>
>> --
>
> Read it..........yup!
>
> But, you are closing the barn door after the prize thoroughbred got out.
> It should have been done between the 2007 and '08 seasons with JH
> anchoring your lineup in CF. You notice that Doc says Phillips is the
> best hitter?

That's just Doc being lazy. Phillips is not our best hitter. If he was, he
could hit right handed pitching. He can't, so he's not.

"RJA" <rja@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:481e611f$0$12928$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
> news:9OmdncQr555234PVnZ2dnUVZ_vmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Orange J. Dood" <no_this_isnt@my_email.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9A94A1228F655Clockwork@72.52.237.249...
>>> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "Bob Braun"
>>> <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com>?
>>>
>>>> I truly have no problem with Dunn or Junior. I just think they
>>>> are not in Reds' future, and 2008 would have been the year to
>>>> try to open it up for the kids. It is meant as no knock to
>>>> either of those guys.
>>>
>>> I pretty much agree with the premise here, although I'm not sure how
>>> Dunn and Junior would fit into it. But I agree with the youth
>>> movement.
>>>
>>> So, it would seem, does Paul Daugherty:
>>>
>>> http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
>>> AID=/20080504/COL03/805040421
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> Read it..........yup!
>>
>> But, you are closing the barn door after the prize thoroughbred got out.
>> It should have been done between the 2007 and '08 seasons with JH
>> anchoring your lineup in CF. You notice that Doc says Phillips is the
>> best hitter?
>
> That's just Doc being lazy. Phillips is not our best hitter. If he was,
> he could hit right handed pitching. He can't, so he's not.
>

Somebody bought into Phillips with that contract. Who is the best hitter on
the team today? Who's the tallest midget in the circus David? The Reds
have lost 16 of 22.

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:T5idnSe68fuR_4PVnZ2dnUVZ_sCtnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Somebody bought into Phillips with that contract. Who is the best hitter
on
> the team today? Who's the tallest midget in the circus David? The Reds
> have lost 16 of 22.


I'll tell you the red I most want to watch play. Jeff Keppinger. He doesn't
do stupid things. He doesn't K. He doesn't get cheated by the umpire. He's a
baseball player.

The best hitter on the reds?

I've already weighed in on my opinion about Phillips. I'm not a believer.
Not Patterson or any of the catchers. Not Freel or Hopper.
Hatteberg is an illusion. Take away GAB and he's toast.
I've never been as awed by Junior as most are.
Votto.....Votto has actually had a bit more trouble with major league
pitching than I thought he would. On the other hand, those doubles have
become homers. He's probably not at the top of the heap yet, but if a Bruce
stumbles, Votto is going to be the best hitter on the team next year.

When Edwin is going well, he's right up there. He still gets himself out too
much.

I would take Dunn, but if you want to take Edwin, I won't argue too much. I
know that's comical, but the dude gets on base and he isn't gonna slug 300
all year long. The refusal to just stick him in the two slot and let Junior
drive him in just baffles me. It's been five managers now, and they're still
trying to stick him in the 5 and 6 slots. I know lineup order doesn't mean
much, but....I don't mean to make excuses for him. I know how much he's
giving back on defense and, Lord, can we all just agree that he has Lonnie
Smith's arm out there.

Bruce has the best arm we are likely to see this year. Better than Kearns.
Stubbs has a plus arm as well.

dfs

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "David Short"
<David.No.Short@Spam.Wright.Please.Edu>?

> Bruce has the best arm we are likely to see this year. Better
> than Kearns.

Whoa. That's saying something.

--
Cheers,
--Jeff
Let's Go Orange!

On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:45:25 -0400, Kevin McClave <kmcclaveSPAM
DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>to find.

I don't see this as a slam dunk. Elite outfielders are just as
hard to find, and usually have much longer careers.

If it were such an easy decision, then why didn't we trade Bruce for
Bedard or Haren?

Haren especially is a young ace with very affordable salary yet we
refused to budge on Bruce.


Volquez is nice. Very nice, but so is a Ken Griffey JR-like talent
roaming the outfield OPSing +900 for a long time. And we seemingly
had 2 of them under wraps at bargain basement prices for at least the
next 6 years. That's extra cash for pitching or whatever.

Lefthandedness be damned, I was looking forward to an outfield of
Bruce, Dunn, and Hobbes for at least a few years. Or it made losing
Dunn not that big of a blow. If Dunn were not in the picture, then
those two talents on the corners could more than allow us to handle a
purely defensive CFer like maybe Stubbs, even if it turns out he can't
hit a lick.

JustTom wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:45:25 -0400, Kevin McClave <kmcclaveSPAM
>> Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>> talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>> to find.
>
> I don't see this as a slam dunk. Elite outfielders are just as
> hard to find, and usually have much longer careers.
>
> If it were such an easy decision, then why didn't we trade Bruce for
> Bedard or Haren?
>
> Haren especially is a young ace with very affordable salary yet we
> refused to budge on Bruce.
Difference in years of service on the pitcher's end. (Volquez with less
service being more valuable) and the matter of risk on the outfielder's
end (Bruce by all accounts is Mr. Wonderful. Hamilton being viewed as a
possible character/health issue)

dfs

On Fri, 09 May 2008 11:52:20 GMT, tom@nomail.please (JustTom) wrote:

>On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:45:25 -0400, Kevin McClave <kmcclaveSPAM
>DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>>talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>>to find.
>
>I don't see this as a slam dunk. Elite outfielders are just as
>hard to find, and usually have much longer careers.
>
>If it were such an easy decision, then why didn't we trade Bruce for
>Bedard or Haren?

Because Bruce isn't as risky (in non-developmental ways) as Hamilton and
because Volquez is (or perhaps was) still a prospect (read "cheaper" to
get).

>Haren especially is a young ace with very affordable salary yet we
>refused to budge on Bruce.

We obviously can't trade all of our outfielders for pitchers.

>Volquez is nice. Very nice, but so is a Ken Griffey JR-like talent
>roaming the outfield OPSing +900 for a long time.

Long time? That's the main reason they dealt him as far as I'm
concerned. He couldn't be counted on (I realize nobody can in the most
basic sense) to the same degree that a guy with less baggage and less
rampant abuse of his body is concerned. He is also 27 years old, not 22.

Now, if they'd dumped him to dump him, I'd be upset, too, saying the
slight risk (at his salary) carried with it a huge potential reward.
They didn't dump him just to dump him. They got a starting pitcher who's
been one of the two or three best pitchers in the game so far this
season.

>And we seemingly
>had 2 of them under wraps at bargain basement prices for at least the
>next 6 years. That's extra cash for pitching or whatever.

But ***we got pitching***, cheap, young and apparently very good
pitching.

>Lefthandedness be damned, I was looking forward to an outfield of
>Bruce, Dunn, and Hobbes for at least a few years. Or it made losing
>Dunn not that big of a blow. If Dunn were not in the picture, then
>those two talents on the corners could more than allow us to handle a
>purely defensive CFer like maybe Stubbs, even if it turns out he can't
>hit a lick.

I'm pretty amazed at how some Reds fans are still not happy about this
trade. Of course, it will be ultimately judged long term, but how can a
fan of a team that has struggled for so long to find a legitimate
starting rotation (I'm going to guess the flash in the pan 1999 staff is
probably the last that we could say that about...and it had no real ace,
bless Pete Harnisch's soul) can be upset about this one.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************

On Fri, 09 May 2008 10:31:32 -0400, Kevin McClave
<kmcclave@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 May 2008 11:52:20 GMT, tom@nomail.please (JustTom) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:45:25 -0400, Kevin McClave <kmcclaveSPAM
>>DIES@HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>>Assuming for the sake of argument that Hamilton and Volquez are equally
>>>talented, of course you would want the pitcher. Pitching is much harder
>>>to find.
>>
>>I don't see this as a slam dunk. Elite outfielders are just as
>>hard to find, and usually have much longer careers.
>>
>>If it were such an easy decision, then why didn't we trade Bruce for
>>Bedard or Haren?
>
>Because Bruce isn't as risky (in non-developmental ways) as Hamilton and
>because Volquez is (or perhaps was) still a prospect (read "cheaper" to
>get).

But Haren or Bedard > Bruce if pitching is harder to find than OFers.


And it wasn't "cheaper". Bruce is still just a prospect who hasn't
taken one swing at the MLB level. Hamilton was already our best
offensive talent and our best OF defender at the MLB level. That's
a pretty expensive price to pay for a prospect.

>
>Long time? That's the main reason they dealt him as far as I'm
>concerned. He couldn't be counted on (I realize nobody can in the most
>basic sense) to the same degree that a guy with less baggage and less
>rampant abuse of his body is concerned. He is also 27 years old, not 22.
>

27 means that he is under arbitration for his prime years.

As for the drug abuse, I was as shocked as anyone when Krivsky pulled
him out of the hat last year, and thought we had hit bottom in the art
of dumpster diving, but instead he turned out to be the most talented
player on the roster.

I've heard the speculation about abuse of his body, but c'mon, Kev, I
think you are as old as I am so you remember those coke dusted mlb
days of the 80's. Hell, Dave Parker was a red. And if my anecdotes
are right, ISTR Tim Raines saying he slid head first on steals so he
wouldn't break the vial of crack he had in h