It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
(i.e. his invention of the point forward)?

If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean, he
tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.

I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
career).

Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...

Any thoughts?


____

--Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--

"Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exists1@Earth71.net> wrote in message
news:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct
> it from the bench (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>

I think Don has simply figured out that if you put a fun exciting team on
the floor, one which wins a decent number of regular season games while
pulling off the occasional showy upset, which is always ultimately
meaningless, NBA "pundits" will declare him to be this great coach who gets
so much out his players. Nevermind that his teams are undisciplined, play no
defense, and their vaunted offfense usually goes into the tank if defensive
pressure is applied. But Nelson, it seems, always gets a pass. Afterall, who
could expect Nelson's teams to actually compete on the level of the Lakers,
Spurs, Jazz?

>
> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> career).
>

His coaching record suggests he is "great" regular season coach, but not
someone you'd count on to take a team to the Finals. Look at his Mavs team.
The year after he leaves, Avery Johnson, a rookie head coach, takes them to
the Finals for the first time in franchise history. Nelson's one of the
biggest frauds roaming the sidelines in the NBA.

> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> Any thoughts?
>

I'll take Phil. Pats a little on the frenetic and emotional side. That wears
thin with the players sooner than later.

Greg

On Apr 21, 6:39 pm, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net>
wrote:
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
> event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
> gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
> bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
> (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean, he
> tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> career).
>
> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ____
>
> --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--

He does the best he can with his teams. He pretty much is consistent
with what he does. No unpredictability, unlike George Karl. How can
you change your philosophy. He goes from being one of the best
defensive minded coaches to one that doesn't even think defense.
Pretty strange to me.

On Apr 21, 4:39 pm, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net>
wrote:
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
> event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
> gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
> bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
> (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean, he
> tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> career).
>
> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ____
>
> --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--

Pat was the benefit of Magic and Kareem in LA, Ewing in NY, and Shaq
and Wade in Miami, so don't anoint him yet. Nellie is the best at
turning a losing team into a 50 win team and upsetting a team in the
first round. Pat is the best at taking that team to the title, but he
doesn't do anything with inferior talent the way Nellie does.
Different coaches are good at different things.

Can you say Larry Brown went from being the best coach (as he was
pronounced by many in Det) to the worst in two years?

Rizzo

On Apr 21, 8:11 pm, "greg brown" <no...@way.com> wrote:
> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net> wrote in messagenews:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
>
> > It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> > around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> > to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> > just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> > coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct
> > it from the bench (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> I think Don has simply figured out that if you put a fun exciting team on
> the floor, one which wins a decent number of regular season games while
> pulling off the occasional showy upset, which is always ultimately
> meaningless, NBA "pundits" will declare him to be this great coach who gets
> so much out his players. Nevermind that his teams are undisciplined, play no
> defense, and their vaunted offfense usually goes into the tank if defensive
> pressure is applied. But Nelson, it seems, always gets a pass. Afterall, who
> could expect Nelson's teams to actually compete on the level of the Lakers,
> Spurs, Jazz?
>
>
>
> > I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> > of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> > career).
>
> His coaching record suggests he is "great" regular season coach, but not
> someone you'd count on to take a team to the Finals. Look at his Mavs team.
> The year after he leaves, Avery Johnson, a rookie head coach, takes them to
> the Finals for the first time in franchise history. Nelson's one of the
> biggest frauds roaming the sidelines in the NBA.
>
> > Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> I'll take Phil. Pats a little on the frenetic and emotional side. That wears
> thin with the players sooner than later.
>
> Greg

Greg, Phil isn't among the top three. Lenny, Nellie, Pat are the
choices for that question.

"greg brown" <noway@way.com> wrote in message
news:usednfmYWfxAy5DVnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@earthlink.com...
> I'll take Phil. Pats a little on the frenetic and emotional side. That
> wears thin with the players sooner than later.
>
> Greg

Not to open this can of worms... but Phil sure did have some great tallent
at the perfect times... perhaps something that the three winningest coaches
did not have.

"Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exists1@Earth71.net> wrote in message
news:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct
> it from the bench (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean,
> he tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> career).
>
> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> Any thoughts?
Agreed-saying in LA-"never bet against Pat Riley."
great coach
>
> ____
>
> --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--
>
>

Frank Rizzo <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:8e85b41d-2623-40fb-b8ba-f3f4448b0360@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

> Greg, Phil isn't among the top three. Lenny, Nellie, Pat are the
> choices for that question.

Can you be top three if you've never won a title?

"Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exists1@Earth71.net> wrote in message
news:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct
> it from the bench (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean,
> he tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> career).
>
> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> ____
>
> --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--
>
>

I think which is why he was bypassed for the Hall of Famer recently.
One of the post stated it well though, it will depends on the state of your
team.

We can see Pat does particularly well on teams with talents. But if you
have a non-playoff team who's best to turn it around than Nelson?
Maybe it's a two step process. You get Nelson in here to lay the plan and
have Pat or Larry Brown to take you to the promised land.
I may even have Phil inherit this team if he can take the Lakers to the
final this year.

On Apr 22, 6:58 am, "B Chang" <yang...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net> wrote in messagenews:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
>
>
>
> > It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> > around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> > to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> > just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> > coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct
> > it from the bench (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> > If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean,
> > he tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> > forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> > I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> > of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> > career).
>
> > Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> > ____
>
> > --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--
>
> I think which is why he was bypassed for the Hall of Famer recently.
> One of the post stated it well though, it will depends on the state of your
> team.
>
> We can see Pat does particularly well on teams with talents. But if you
> have a non-playoff team who's best to turn it around than Nelson?
> Maybe it's a two step process. You get Nelson in here to lay the plan and
> have Pat or Larry Brown to take you to the promised land.
> I may even have Phil inherit this team if he can take the Lakers to the
> final this year.

Nelson is maybe the best guy around perhaps with Larry Brown at
getting the best out of what he has. He isn't very good at
constructing a team. Phil and Pat aren't as good at the getting the
best out of inferior talent -- look at the Lakers last year. Hard to
argue they had a lot less talent than the Warriors this year. Nelson
fails to build championship teams mostly because he doesn't construct
teams the right way or help the GM develop ad acquire the right
players.

Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
> event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
> gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
> bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
> (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?

Wel, it's not clear that the failure to win a championship is directly
related to his coaching abilities. Phils always says it's mostly about
the talent ... and I'm not sure Nellie has ever really had championship
level talent. I wonder if "smallball" is really all he wants to do or
just the best he can do with the personnel.

Maybe his gift is getting the best out of limited talent ... making it
appear that they have a better team than they really do ... then the
real deficiencies show up in the playoffs.

Rob

Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net> wrote in
news:3enPj.10065$pH4.3654@trnddc06:

> Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
>> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
>> around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and
>> never to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe
>> the guy is just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does
>> not know how to coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows
>> basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench (i.e. his invention
>> of the point forward)?
>
> Wel, it's not clear that the failure to win a championship is directly
> related to his coaching abilities. Phils always says it's mostly about
> the talent ... and I'm not sure Nellie has ever really had
> championship level talent. I wonder if "smallball" is really all he
> wants to do or just the best he can do with the personnel.
>
> Maybe his gift is getting the best out of limited talent ... making it
> appear that they have a better team than they really do ... then the
> real deficiencies show up in the playoffs.

This seems mostly right, though the Dallas episode (with Johnson taking
the team to the finals the year after Nellie) does put some of the blame
on Nelson as a coach.

But his gift for getting the most out of limited talent is undeniable.
His ability to figure out how to get mismatches that work to his team's
advantage is genius. That's a shortcoming as well. He LOVES being a
genius, and eventually, that catches up with him.

On Apr 21, 10:17 pm, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net>
wrote:
> "greg brown" <no...@way.com> wrote in message
>
> news:usednfmYWfxAy5DVnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> > I'll take Phil. Pats a little on the frenetic and emotional side. That
> > wears thin with the players sooner than later.
>
> > Greg
>
> Not to open this can of worms... but Phil sure did have some great tallent
> at the perfect times... perhaps something that the three winningest coaches
> did not have.

Yes he did. That's why this year is his best work ever as I said
earlier.

Rizzo

On Apr 22, 6:58 am, "B Chang" <yang...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net> wrote in messagenews:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
>
>
>
> > It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> > around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> > to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> > just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> > coach it to the bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct
> > it from the bench (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> > If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean,
> > he tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> > forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> > I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> > of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> > career).
>
> > Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> > ____
>
> > --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--
>
> I think which is why he was bypassed for the Hall of Famer recently.
> One of the post stated it well though, it will depends on the state of your
> team.
>
> We can see Pat does particularly well on teams with talents. But if you
> have a non-playoff team who's best to turn it around than Nelson?
> Maybe it's a two step process. You get Nelson in here to lay the plan and
> have Pat or Larry Brown to take you to the promised land.
> I may even have Phil inherit this team if he can take the Lakers to the
> final this year.

I believe we are speaking about the coaches with the most wins and
those are the top three. Nobody said those are the best coaches. I'm
sure Red would have been mentioned at least once.

He's a coach that can win with a lot of rosters that not many can win with,
but cannot win a title with rosters with which some others could.

"Don't Taze Me, Bro!" wrote:
>
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
> event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
> gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
> bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
> (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean, he
> tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> career).
>
> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ____
>
> --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--


--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard@yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"Obama is disconsolate that people 'cling' to rights guaranteed in
the first and second amendments? Could we get his opinion on the
rest of the Bill of Rights?" -- Tim Knowlton

On Apr 22, 11:39 am, Gary Collard <d...@ddd.com> wrote:
> He's a coach that can win with a lot of rosters that not many can win with,
> but cannot win a title with rosters with which some others could.
>
> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
> > and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
> > event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
> > gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
> > bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
> > (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>
> > If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean, he
> > tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
> > forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>
> > I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
> > of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
> > career).
>
> > Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> > ____
>
> > --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--
>
> --
> Gary Collard
> SABR-L Moderator
> gmcoll...@yahoo.comhttp://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/
>
> "Obama is disconsolate that people 'cling' to rights guaranteed in
> the first and second amendments? Could we get his opinion on the
> rest of the Bill of Rights?" -- Tim Knowlton

Except nobody has followed him with a title, ever. Not in Milw, GS,
NY or Dall.

Rizzo

Frank Rizzo wrote:
> On Apr 22, 11:39 am, Gary Collard <d...@ddd.com> wrote:
>> He's a coach that can win with a lot of rosters that not many can win with,
>> but cannot win a title with rosters with which some others could.
>>
>> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team around,
>>> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the main
>>> event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is just really
>>> gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to coach it to the
>>> bloody end? Maybe he knows basketball, but cannot direct it from the bench
>>> (i.e. his invention of the point forward)?
>>> If you look at his history... he did a lot of interesting things. I mean, he
>>> tried to bring O'neal to NY in a trade that would involve Ewing and so
>>> forth. There is no doubt that the guy knows talent.
>>> I know his coaching record suggests he is a great coach, but that is a lot
>>> of wins, not to have a championship to show for it (outside of his playing
>>> career).
>>> Out of the top 3 winningest coaches... I would take Pat...
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> ____
>>> --Boycotting the 2008 China Olympic Games--
>> --
>> Gary Collard
>> SABR-L Moderator
>> gmcoll...@yahoo.comhttp://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/
>>
>> "Obama is disconsolate that people 'cling' to rights guaranteed in
>> the first and second amendments? Could we get his opinion on the
>> rest of the Bill of Rights?" -- Tim Knowlton
>
> Except nobody has followed him with a title, ever. Not in Milw, GS,
> NY or Dall.



Which reminds me, he did have Bob Lanier (although on the older side)
playing for him at one point. That Bucks team was probably his most
talented. Unfortunately for them, they had the likes of Larry Bird,
Moses Malone, Dr. J and Kevin McHale to contend with.

-JC

One of Nelson's coaching disciples, Del Harris, also follows a similar
pattern. Harris was pretty good at taking a rebuilding team and
making them competitive (i.e. the turnaround he did with the Lakers in
'94-'95), and it's good to have him at the helm when you're rebuilding
and don't have a realistic shot at winning at all. When you're team
is seriously contending, however, it's time to replace Harris with
someone proven on the championship level.

What coaching abilities? If you are a team looking to make a serious
move into contention, you don't hire Nelson.

His tactics and styles might bring an entertaining style, but that
will get you nowhere in the long run. He is clueless utilizing big
men, and his teams do not play an ounce of defense. Every coach has
flaws, but he has some of the worst.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to play for the big trophy, but the
more successful ones usually get at least 1 or 2 chances. Karl
reached the championship series, Adelman twice (was very close on two
other occasions), Van Gundy in NY, even Bird in a short stint (he did
take over a team with a solid foundation). Sloan twice,

Nelson is just an overrated, over-glorified version of Doug Moe. But
because he has history with Boston, Nelson can stick around forever.

Old_Golden_Throat wrote:
> What coaching abilities? If you are a team looking to make a serious
> move into contention, you don't hire Nelson.
>
> His tactics and styles might bring an entertaining style, but that
> will


What big men?

-JC

On Apr 22, 12:42 pm, Ken Cheng <kench...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> One of Nelson's coaching disciples, Del Harris, also follows a similar
> pattern. Harris was pretty good at taking a rebuilding team and
> making them competitive (i.e. the turnaround he did with the Lakers in
> '94-'95), and it's good to have him at the helm when you're rebuilding
> and don't have a realistic shot at winning at all. When you're team
> is seriously contending, however, it's time to replace Harris with
> someone proven on the championship level.

Another Nelson disciple is Popovich, who obviously can take a team to
the next level. Interesting that his forte' is defense.

Rizzo

On Apr 22, 12:46 pm, Old_Golden_Throat <chick_hearn_3...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> What coaching abilities? If you are a team looking to make a serious
> move into contention, you don't hire Nelson.
>
> His tactics and styles might bring an entertaining style, but that
> will get you nowhere in the long run. He is clueless utilizing big
> men, and his teams do not play an ounce of defense. Every coach has
> flaws, but he has some of the worst.
>
> Not everyone is fortunate enough to play for the big trophy, but the
> more successful ones usually get at least 1 or 2 chances. Karl
> reached the championship series, Adelman twice (was very close on two
> other occasions), Van Gundy in NY, even Bird in a short stint (he did
> take over a team with a solid foundation). Sloan twice,
>
> Nelson is just an overrated, over-glorified version of Doug Moe. But
> because he has history with Boston, Nelson can stick around forever.

You're right. He backed into 1200 wins with such luminaries as
Winston Garland starting on a team he took to the playoffs.

On Apr 22, 10:11 pm, Frank Rizzo <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You're right.  He backed into 1200 wins with such luminaries as
> Winston Garland starting on a team he took to the playoffs.

You know where I stand on his go-round with the Knicks... he'd be
perfect for us now though :)

Somehow I suspect he won't be leaving GS for NY again though.

On Apr 22, 7:19 pm, "Capn'O" <dan.zin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 22, 10:11 pm, Frank Rizzo <champ91...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > You're right. He backed into 1200 wins with such luminaries as
> > Winston Garland starting on a team he took to the playoffs.
>
> You know where I stand on his go-round with the Knicks... he'd be
> perfect for us now though :)
>
> Somehow I suspect he won't be leaving GS for NY again though.

He'll be done with GS at the end of next season at the latest.
Probably to Maui.

Rizzo

Yes, Popovich learned under Nelson that you can't win w/o defense. He
thought to himself "what is this B.S."? As soon as he left, devised
his own system, he succeeded while defeating Nelson almost every time.

On Apr 22, 7:41 pm, Old_Golden_Throat <chick_hearn_3...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Yes, Popovich learned under Nelson that you can't win w/o defense. He
> thought to himself "what is this B.S."? As soon as he left, devised
> his own system, he succeeded while defeating Nelson almost every time.

What is notable is that a lot of the guys you mention Adelman, Karl
etc. were failed coaches at Golden State where in each case Nelson
significantly improved on their efforts. It is hard to argue that a
guy with his winning percentage has no coaching talent. He may just
not have the right kind of talent to take a team to a championship.
As a turnaround guy to set up a winning environment with relatively
weak talent, there is noone better. Golden State had to have that
type of coaching talent -- my guess is that few 'championship' coaches
could have done the job he did over the last two years turning this
club around.

Dean

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5_o-ve9sII

Don Nelson getting his butt kicked, it's no surprise.

On Apr 23, 11:40 pm, Old_Golden_Throat <chick_hearn_3...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5_o-ve9sII
>
> Don Nelson getting his butt kicked, it's no surprise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp4v3a3-fHk&feature=related

Nelson hits game winner to defeat Lakers for Title. Has nothing to do
with coaching, but you were just being a dick by not writing logically
so I thought it appropriate to twist the knife a little.

It doesn't bother me, mostly because it didn't happen in my lifetime.

On Apr 22, 12:46 pm, Old_Golden_Throat <chick_hearn_3...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> What coaching abilities? If you are a team looking to make a serious
> move into contention, you don't hire Nelson.
>
> His tactics and styles might bring an entertaining style, but that
> will get you nowhere in the long run. He is clueless utilizing big
> men, and his teams do not play an ounce of defense. Every coach has
> flaws, but he has some of the worst.
>
> Not everyone is fortunate enough to play for the big trophy, but the
> more successful ones usually get at least 1 or 2 chances. Karl
> reached the championship series, Adelman twice (was very close on two
> other occasions), Van Gundy in NY, even Bird in a short stint (he did
> take over a team with a solid foundation). Sloan twice,
>
> Nelson is just an overrated, over-glorified version of Doug Moe. But
> because he has history with Boston, Nelson can stick around forever.

It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah or a coach that can't
get anything out of his team. I agree with a small part of what you
said. He won't likely take you to the title. However there are few,
if any, better at taking a team with huge flaws and getting them to
the post season, maybe even upsetting a better team along the way.
He's great at turning a 30 win team into a 50 win team in lightening
quick fashion. He's also a great teacher to other coaches who learn
how to exploit matchups. He does have his weaknesses, like most all
coaches (possibly not Pop). But overrated? Don't think that applies
here as nobody ever said he's the best coach ever. Sounds like you
have an axe to grind, which dampens credibility.

Nellie would be great for Chicago, NY, LAC, Charlotte, and even
Miami. He is not a good fit for Utah, Orlando, Detroit etc (not that
they are looking for a coach but because of what I said above.)
Bottom line, most of us here think he's a good coach, he's well
respected amongst his peers and former players, but you don't like
him. I'll go with his peers and former players.

Rizzo

Frank Rizzo:

> It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah

Easy.

According to Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck, Isiah Lord Thomas III is a great
basketball mind.

DG

Dan Gaters wrote:
> Frank Rizzo:
>
>> It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah
>
> Easy.
>
> According to Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck, Isiah Lord Thomas III is a great
> basketball mind.

Is Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck a reference to Isiah himself? That
would be typical - he is a legend in his own mind.

Dan Gaters wrote:
> Frank Rizzo:
>
>> It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah
>
> Easy.
>
> According to Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck, Isiah Lord Thomas III is a great
> basketball mind.

Is Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck a reference to Isiah himself? That
would be typical - he is a legend in his own mind.

On Apr 25, 10:21 pm, Chainsaw <n...@all.net> wrote:
> Dan Gaters wrote:
> > Frank Rizzo:
>
> >> It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah
>
> > Easy.
>
> > According to Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck, Isiah Lord Thomas III is a great
> > basketball mind.
>
> Is Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck a reference to Isiah himself? That
> would be typical - he is a legend in his own mind.

That's what he's calling Donnie Walsh for not immediately firing
Isiah.

....

Capn'O wrote:
> On Apr 25, 10:21 pm, Chainsaw <n...@all.net> wrote:
>> Dan Gaters wrote:
>>> Frank Rizzo:
>>>> It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah
>>> Easy.
>>> According to Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck, Isiah Lord Thomas III is a great
>>> basketball mind.
>> Is Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck a reference to Isiah himself? That
>> would be typical - he is a legend in his own mind.
>
> That's what he's calling Donnie Walsh for not immediately firing
> Isiah.

Isiah must have pictures of Mills and Dolan playing vegetable oil games
with a troupe of boy scouts. Hard to imagine anything else preventing
Walsh from spitting Isiah out of the Knicks world completely like
a rancid peach pit. *ptui*

On Apr 26, 5:08 pm, Chainsaw <n...@all.net> wrote:
> Capn'O wrote:
> > On Apr 25, 10:21 pm, Chainsaw <n...@all.net> wrote:
> >> Dan Gaters wrote:
> >>> Frank Rizzo:
> >>>> It's not like he's a piece of crap like Isiah
> >>> Easy.
> >>> According to Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck, Isiah Lord Thomas III is a great
> >>> basketball mind.
> >> Is Mr. GimmeMyRetirementPaycheck a reference to Isiah himself? That
> >> would be typical - he is a legend in his own mind.
>
> > That's what he's calling Donnie Walsh for not immediately firing
> > Isiah.
>
> Isiah must have pictures of Mills and Dolan playing vegetable oil games
> with a troupe of boy scouts. Hard to imagine anything else preventing
> Walsh from spitting Isiah out of the Knicks world completely like
> a rancid peach pit. *ptui*

Yeah, it's really tough to put a finger on why Dolan likes him so
much... but that point -whether Dolan mandated keeping him around- has
been the argument de four (as much as we still have such a thing) in
the Knick forum these days.

Chainsaw wrote:
> Isiah must have pictures of Mills and Dolan playing vegetable oil games
> with a troupe of boy scouts. Hard to imagine anything else preventing
> Walsh from spitting Isiah out of the Knicks world completely like
> a rancid peach pit. *ptui*

How about Walsh's possible desire to humiliate Isiah by putting him in a
messenger-boy position with no authority whatsoever?

Actually, I doubt he actually wants to do that, but this allows him to
nominally be the nice guy while still leaving no doubt in Isiah's mind
what he's reduced him to.

--
Brian Tung <brian@aero.org>
NOTE: Below addresses changing soon...
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

"Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exists1@Earth71.net> wrote in message
news:FA9Pj.1844$nb4.1808@trnddc08...
> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
> around, and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never
> to the main event, they stay the same, or they falter. Maybe the guy is
> just really gifted at pulling talent together, but does not know how to
> coach it to the bloody end? ...
>
> Any thoughts?
Yes I think Don Nelson is the Numero Uno most over rated coach of All Time.
I hope he stays in Hawaii
KjH>

"Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a2edcadf-7661-466e-8df6-0f5de77e45ab@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 21, 4:39 pm, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <No2Exis...@Earth71.net>
> wrote:
>> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly turns the team
>> around,
>> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs and never to the
>> main
>> event, they stay the same, or they falter.
snip...
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Pat was the benefit of Magic and Kareem in LA, Ewing in NY, and Shaq
> and Wade in Miami, so don't anoint him yet. Nellie is the best at
> turning a losing team into a 50 win team and upsetting a team in the
> first round. Pat is the best at taking that team to the title, but he
> doesn't do anything with inferior talent the way Nellie does.
> Different coaches are good at different things.
>
> Can you say Larry Brown went from being the best coach (as he was
> pronounced by many in Det) to the worst in two years?
>
Larry Brown has won and won titles or at least played for one almost
everywhere he has been, Nelson has not come close to
winning a title. They are similar in the fact that they try to much to be
the face on the team. Thus they tend to fued with stronger willed guys.
That being said, Id take a Larry Brown turd on my bench before Id take Don
Nelson.
KjH

"Kevsan AKA KJHanz" <slick@willy.net> wrote in
news:zWGRj.238$17.171@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net:

>
> "Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a2edcadf-7661-466e-8df6-0f5de77e45ab@x19g2000prg.google
> groups.com...
>> On Apr 21, 4:39 pm, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!"
>> <No2Exis...@Earth71.net> wrote:
>>> It appears that everywhere the man goes, he suddenly
>>> turns the team around,
>>> and then they either get to their peak in the playoffs
>>> and never to the main
>>> event, they stay the same, or they falter.
> snip...
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Pat was the benefit of Magic and Kareem in LA, Ewing in
>> NY, and Shaq and Wade in Miami, so don't anoint him yet.
>> Nellie is the best at turning a losing team into a 50 win
>> team and upsetting a team in the first round. Pat is the
>> best at taking that team to the title, but he doesn't do
>> anything with inferior talent the way Nellie does.
>> Different coaches are good at different things.
>>
>> Can you say Larry Brown went from being the best coach (as
>> he was pronounced by many in Det) to the worst in two
>> years?
>>
> Larry Brown has won and won titles or at least played for
> one almost everywhere he has been, Nelson has not come
> close to winning a title. They are similar in the fact that
> they try to much to be the face on the team. Thus they tend
> to fued with stronger willed guys. That being said, Id take
> a Larry Brown turd on my bench before Id take Don Nelson.
> KjH
>
>
>

Comparing Larry Brown to Don Nelson......

Larry Brown:

Brown's first head coaching job was at Davidson College in
North Carolina. Unfortunately for Wildcat fans, it would only
last during the summer offseason and he never coached a game.
That one month experience would be a harbinger to Brown's
nomadic coaching career.

Brown moved on to the ABA and coached with the Carolina
Cougars and then the Denver Rockets, who later became the
NBA's Denver Nuggets in 1976, for three and a half seasons
from 1975 to 1979. He then moved on to coach for UCLA (1979-
80, 1980-81), leading his freshman-dominated 1979-80 team to
the NCAA title game before falling to Louisville, 59-54.

After two years with the NBA's New Jersey Nets, Brown began
his tenure at the University of Kansas (1983-1988). There he
was named "Coach of the Year" for the NCAA in 1988 and "Coach
of the Year" for the Big Eight Conference in 1986. Kansas
finished first in the Big Eight in 1986, and second in 1984,
1985, and 1987. In 1988, Kansas got off to a mediocre 12-8
start, including 1-4 in the Big 8, and the end of the
Jayhawks' 55-game homecourt winning streak in Allen
Fieldhouse. Ultimately, behind the high-scoring of Danny
Manning, KU finished 27-11 and won the the national
championship in 1988, defeating favored conference rival
Oklahoma 83-79 in the final. Upon leaving Kansas, Brown had
five NCAA Tournament appearances, three Sweet 16 appearances,
and two trips to the Final Four. As a collegiate coach, he had
a cumulative coaching record of 177-61 (.744) in seven
seasons, including a 135-44 (.754) record at Kansas. However,
he left under a cloud, as NCAA sanctions were levied against
Kansas in the 1988-1989 season as a result of recruiting
violations that took place during Brown's tenure.

Brown moved back to the NBA after his time in Kansas, taking
the head coaching job with the San Antonio Spurs, and has
since led the Los Angeles Clippers, Indiana Pacers,
Philadelphia 76ers, Detroit Pistons and New York Knicks. The
coach won his first NBA Championship during his first year
with the Detroit Pistons in 2004, defeating the Los Angeles
Lakers four games to one in the NBA Finals. By doing so, Brown
became the first man to coach teams to both NCAA and NBA
titles.

Brown was also chosen as the head coach for the USA men's
basketball team at the 2004 Summer Olympics which earned a
bronze medal, a major disappointment. Brown was heavily
criticized for publicly berating the players, for repeatedly
criticizing the roster chosen by the player selection
committee, and for insisting on a style of play which
minimized the United States' advantage in athleticism.

Though he has received criticism for never staying in any one
place for very long, Brown is hailed as one of basketball's
greatest teachers, and is unparalleled as a rebuilder of
teams. The Nets and the Clippers are not only the "second
teams" in their metropolitan areas, but have long been
regarded as laughingstock franchises. Prior to the 2001
arrival of Jason Kidd, the Nets had made the playoffs in only
10 of their first 25 seasons in the NBA. Two of those 10 times
were in 1982 and 1983, under Brown. The Clippers, in San Diego
and Los Angeles combined, made the playoffs in only three of
their first 27 seasons. The first two of those times were in
1992 and 1993, under Brown. Those were also the second and
third of the three times the franchise had finished .500 or
better since moving in 1978, after being the Buffalo Braves,
until finishing over .500 and making the playoffs in 2006. In
2005, Allen Iverson said that Larry Brown was without a doubt
"the best coach in the world."

Despite Brown's prowess in coaching and handling different
egos and personalities, Brown has often been questioned for
not playing rookies, and for searching publicly for other jobs
while still employed. This happened most recently in May 2005,
when rumors surfaced that Brown would become the Cleveland
Cavaliers' team president as soon as the Detroit Pistons
finished their postseason. The rumor, which was not dispelled
by Brown, became a major distraction as the Pistons lost to
the San Antonio Spurs in seven games in the 2005 NBA Finals.

On July 19, 2005, the Pistons, displeased with Brown's public
flirtations with other teams, bought out the remaining years
of Brown's contract, allowing him to sign with another team.
[1] [2] A week later, on July 28, Brown became the head coach
of the New York Knicks [3], with a 5-year contract reportedly
worth between $50 million and $60 million, making him the
highest-paid coach in NBA history.

On January 13, 2006, The New York Knicks beat the Atlanta
Hawks to give Brown his 1,000th win in the NBA, becoming only
the 4th coach to do so joining the ranks of Lenny Wilkens, Don
Nelson and Pat Riley. Coincidentally, all four of these
coaches have served as head coach for the Knicks at one point
in their career.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Don Nelson:

Brown's first head coaching job was at Davidson College in
North Carolina. Unfortunately for Wildcat fans, it would only
last during the summer offseason and he never coached a game.
That one month experience would be a harbinger to Brown's
nomadic coaching career.

Brown moved on to the ABA and coached with the Carolina
Cougars and then the Denver Rockets, who later became the
NBA's Denver Nuggets in 1976, for three and a half seasons
from 1975 to 1979. He then moved on to coach for UCLA (1979-
80, 1980-81), leading his freshman-dominated 1979-80 team to
the NCAA title game before falling to Louisville, 59-54.

After two years with the NBA's New Jersey Nets, Brown began
his tenure at the University of Kansas (1983-1988). There he
was named "Coach of the Year" for the NCAA in 1988 and "Coach
of the Year" for the Big Eight Conference in 1986. Kansas
finished first in the Big Eight in 1986, and second in 1984,
1985, and 1987. In 1988, Kansas got off to a mediocre 12-8
start, including 1-4 in the Big 8, and the end of the
Jayhawks' 55-game homecourt winning streak in Allen
Fieldhouse. Ultimately, behind the high-scoring of Danny
Manning, KU finished 27-11 and won the the national
championship in 1988, defeating favored conference rival
Oklahoma 83-79 in the final. Upon leaving Kansas, Brown had
five NCAA Tournament appearances, three Sweet 16 appearances,
and two trips to the Final Four. As a collegiate coach, he had
a cumulative coaching record of 177-61 (.744) in seven
seasons, including a 135-44 (.754) record at Kansas. However,
he left under a cloud, as NCAA sanctions were levied against
Kansas in the 1988-1989 season as a result of recruiting
violations that took place during Brown's tenure.

Brown moved back to the NBA after his time in Kansas, taking
the head coaching job with the San Antonio Spurs, and has
since led the Los Angeles Clippers, Indiana Pacers,
Philadelphia 76ers, Detroit Pistons and New York Knicks. The
coach won his first NBA Championship during his first year
with the Detroit Pistons in 2004, defeating the Los Angeles
Lakers four games to one in the NBA Finals. By doing so, Brown
became the first man to coach teams to both NCAA and NBA
titles.

Brown was also chosen as the head coach for the USA men's
basketball team at the 2004 Summer Olympics which earned a
bronze medal, a major disappointment. Brown was heavily
criticized for publicly berating the players, for repeatedly
criticizing the roster chosen by the player selection
committee, and for insisting on a style of play which
minimized the United States' advantage in athleticism.

Though he has received criticism for never staying in any one
place for very long, Brown is hailed as one of basketball's
greatest teachers, and is unparalleled as a rebuilder of
teams. The Nets and the Clippers are not only the "second
teams" in their metropolitan areas, but have long been
regarded as laughingstock franchises. Prior to the 2001
arrival of Jason Kidd, the Nets had made the playoffs in only
10 of their first 25 seasons in the NBA. Two of those 10 times
were in 1982 and 1983, under Brown. The Clippers, in San Diego
and Los Angeles combined, made the playoffs in only three of
their first 27 seasons. The first two of those times were in
1992 and 1993, under Brown. Those were also the second and
third of the three times the franchise had finished .500 or
better since moving in 1978, after being the Buffalo Braves,
until finishing over .500 and making the playoffs in 2006. In
2005, Allen Iverson said that Larry Brown was without a doubt
"the best coach in the world."

Despite Brown's prowess in coaching and handling different
egos and personalities, Brown has often been questioned for
not playing rookies, and for searching publicly for other jobs
while still employed. This happened most recently in May 2005,
when rumors surfaced that Brown would become the Cleveland
Cavaliers' team president as soon as the Detroit Pistons
finished their postseason. The rumor, which was not dispelled
by Brown, became a major distraction as the Pistons lost to
the San Antonio Spurs in seven games in the 2005 NBA Finals.

On July 19, 2005, the Pistons, displeased with Brown's public
flirtations with other teams, bought out the remaining years
of Brown's contract, allowing him to sign with another team.
[1] [2] A week later, on July 28, Brown became the head coach
of the New York Knicks [3], with a 5-year contract reportedly
worth between $50 million and $60 million, making him the
highest-paid coach in NBA history.

On January 13, 2006, The New York Knicks beat the Atlanta
Hawks to give Brown his 1,000th win in the NBA, becoming only
the 4th coach to do so joining the ranks of Lenny Wilkens, Don
Nelson and Pat Riley. Coincidentally, all four of these
coaches have served as head coach for the Knicks at one point
in their career.
-------------------------------------------------------------